Our extraordinary guest in this episode is JP McMahon, Michelin star chef, restauranteur, ambassador for Irish food and author, joining us live from Galway, Ireland. In a wide-ranging conversation, we talk about his eclectic and artistic interests, the concepts behind his restaurants, what it takes to be a Michelin-star restaurant and the upsides/downsides of that global program. Some folks may have been watching the Superbowl on Sunday night, but you would have missed the important announcement, Best Sommelier in the World competition! Speaking of a live show and competition, the Parliamentary Agriculture Committee is back looking at food inflation. We talk about what the next steps.
Our first weekly podcast episode, and as expected, there is no shortage of news and happenings in the food, grocery and restaurant industry to report on!
Our extraordinary guest in this episode is JP McMahon, Michelin star chef, restauranteur, ambassador for Irish food and author, joining us live from Galway, Ireland. In a wide-ranging conversation, we talk about his eclectic and artistic interests, the concepts behind his restaurants, what it takes to be a Michelin-star restaurant and the upsides/downsides of that global program. We also talk about lessons learned from the COVID pandemic for the industry, the stagiaires system, and two-starts, one-stop advice for fellow restauranteurs.
Some folks may have been watching the Superbowl on Sunday night, but you would have missed the important announcement, Best Sommelier in the World competition! The best Sommelier in the world is from Latvia, crowned Sunday in Paris in front of 4,000 spectators. Raimonds Tomsons beat another contestant from northern Europe, Denmark's Nina Jensen, who was runner-up for the second consecutive edition of the triennial competition. Reeze Choi from Hong Kong finished third. Not countries that usually come to mind when thinking about wine, we talk about why this is a positive development in wine.
Speaking of a live show and competition, the Parliamentary Agriculture Committee is back looking at food inflation. We talk about what the next steps.
Next week is the one-year anniversary of Russia's invasion of Ukraine coming(Feb. 24) - we start looking ahead.
We talk about GM Salmon farm change of business model….Aquabounty and Australia's Karen's Diner are coming to Canada. Up in smoke: Canopy closes their iconic plant in Smith Falls, the old Hershey plant - at one time the biggest cannabis company in the world
That's a lot of cheddar, as the kids would say - Saputo blows the doors off their results with an 85% YOY performance.
New labour data (STASCAN), coming out last week: Only two sectors are employing fewer people than in January 2020: Agriculture (-12%) and Accommodation and hospitality (-10%) - is this a shift or shortage of workers?
Farmland values across the country are skyrocketing - we talk about the implications.
About JP
JP McMahon is one of Ireland’s most prominent chefs. A passionate advocate of wild, seasonal and sustainable ingredients from the west of the country, he is committed to promoting the food of Galway, and to producing world-class, contemporary Irish cuisine. His Michelin-star restaurant Aniar does both, but it also feeds back into the local community on a much deeper level. His annual Food On The Edge symposium in Galway reaches even further afield, with its roll call of top chefs from all over the world. Which is why JP McMahon is one of the most influential people in European gastronomy today.
The Dublin-born chef had his first food epiphany as a child while on holiday in Tipperary. While the rest of the family had burgers, he opted for a spaghetti bolognese, which was a revelation to the youngster. It set him on a course of discovery that would see him work in various kitchens, while also harbouring an ambition to become a writer. It wasn’t until 2008 that he opened his first venture, a Spanish restaurant called Cava. It quickly won a reputation for serving some of the best tapas in Ireland, and it gave McMahon the confidence to embark on his most ambitious restaurant project to date.
Aniar (meaning ‘west’ in Gaelic) is a love letter to the produce and landscape of the West of Ireland and its rugged coast. Almost every ingredient used here is either native to the local region or from somewhere else in Ireland, whether it’s foraged seaweed and Galway Bay oysters, or seasonal sea urchins and truffles. Terroir is the central theme, and although the menu changes daily, it is certain to have a distinctive local flavour that mirrors McMahon’s cooking philosophy. Pickled, smoked, cured and fermented ingredients hint at his commitment to the environment, using the methods of the past in order to inspire future sustainability.
Among JP McMahon’s signature dishes are his Galway Bay oyster with pickled seaweed, oyster emulsion and sea herbs. His Dexter beef tartare, smoked egg yolk and pepper dulse seaweed showcases some of the very best farmed and foraged ingredients in the country. Meanwhile, his cod and seaweed beurre blanc with trout roe reveals the very best of the west coast of Ireland.
Aniar has retained a Michelin star since 2013, but its significance locally has more impact than mere awards. McMahon founded the Aniar School Project, in which he teaches children of all ages about the importance of food. And the Aniar Cookery School, also led by McMahon, aims to instruct chefs of all levels how to cook local ingredients sustainably. The conversation about the environment doesn’t stop there, however.
At the annual Food On The Edge symposium, chefs from around the world gather in Galway to discuss the future of food. As founder and director, McMahon plays a key role in setting the agenda, but with participants of the calibre of Massimo Bottura, Elena Arzak, Matt Orlando and Amanda Cohen, the discussion frequently branches out in all kinds of fascinating tangents, from food waste to mental health. The idea is to bring people together to share ideas and form powerful collaborations that can help change the way we think about food. Some of the chefs also participate in Aniar’s Chef Swap initiative, which sees guest chefs from all over the world take over the kitchen and create their own menu.
It’s this ethos of collaboration that typifies JP McMahon’s work, not only as a chef, but also as a culinary thought leader. Whether it’s local food producers in the West of Ireland, or celebrated chefs from the other side of the world, the emphasis is on working together to ensure a better future for all. That way, the author of the book 10,000 Years Of Irish Food is aiming to ensure another 10,000 more.
Source: https://www.finedininglovers.com/people/jp-mcmahon
About Us
Dr. Sylvain Charlebois is a Professor in food distribution and policy in the Faculties of Management and Agriculture at Dalhousie University in Halifax. He is also the Senior Director of the Agri-food Analytics Lab, also located at Dalhousie University. Before joining Dalhousie, he was affiliated with the University of Guelph’s Arrell Food Institute, which he co-founded. Known as “The Food Professor”, his current research interest lies in the broad area of food distribution, security and safety. Google Scholar ranks him as one of the world's most cited scholars in food supply chain management, food value chains and traceability.
He has authored five books on global food systems, his most recent one published in 2017 by Wiley-Blackwell entitled “Food Safety, Risk Intelligence and Benchmarking”. He has also published over 500 peer-reviewed journal articles in several academic publications. Furthermore, his research has been featured in several newspapers and media groups, including The Lancet, The Economist, the New York Times, the Boston Globe, the Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, BBC, NBC, ABC, Fox News, Foreign Affairs, the Globe & Mail, the National Post and the Toronto Star.
Dr. Charlebois sits on a few company boards, and supports many organizations as a special advisor, including some publicly traded companies. Charlebois is also a member of the Scientific Council of the Business Scientific Institute, based in Luxemburg. Dr. Charlebois is a member of the Global Food Traceability Centre’s Advisory Board based in Washington DC, and a member of the National Scientific Committee of the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) in Ottawa.
About Michael
Michael is the Founder & President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company Inc. and a Senior Advisor to Retail Council of Canada and the Bank of Canada as part of his advisory and consulting practice. He brings 25+ years of brand/retail/marketing & eCommerce leadership experience with Levi's, Black & Decker, Hudson's Bay, Today's Shopping Choice and Pandora Jewellery.
Michael has been on the front lines of retail industry change for his entire career. He has delivered keynotes, hosted fire-side discussions with C-level executives and participated worldwide in thought leadership panels. ReThink Retail has added Michael to their prestigious Top Global Retail Influencers list for 2023 for the third year in a row.
Michael is also the president of Maven Media, producing a network of leading trade podcasts, including Remarkable Retail , with best-selling author Steve Dennis, now ranked one of the top retail podcasts in the world.
Based in San Francisco, Global eCommerce Leaders podcast explores global cross-border issues and opportunities for eCommerce brands and retailers.
Last but not least, Michael is the producer and host of the "Last Request Barbeque" channel on YouTube, where he cooks meals to die for - and collaborates with top brands as a food and product influencer across North America.
Michael LeBlanc 00:05
Welcome to The Food Professor Podcast Season 3, Episode 12. I'm Michael LeBlanc,
Sylvain Charlebois 00:10
And I'm The Food Professor, Sylvain Charlebois.
Michael LeBlanc 00:13
Well Sylvain it's our very first weekly podcast together and once again there's no shortage of news and happenings in the food grocery restaurant industry to talk about. I mean, you sent me a few ideas. I've got a few ideas. So, I think I can imagine that we'll have lots to talk about each and every week. So, I'm so happy that we're doing this weekly because it adds another dimension to the podcast. Yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois 00:35
Oh, absolutely. I couldn't sleep last night. Seriously, I was just there's so many things going on. And yeah, at the beginning three years ago, I thought, well, is there enough content to do a podcast every two weeks and now do we, we have too much. We have too much to talk about. So yeah, we had a long list of things to settle.
Michael LeBlanc 00:55
We have a long list of things to settle and we have a very special guest JP McMahon, Michelin star chef, restaurateur for the Irish food culture. Our first European guest, I think he is. I think he's joining us live from Galway, Ireland from his home before he heads out to,
Sylvain Charlebois 01:11
Have you been to Galway?
Michael LeBlanc 01:13
I have met JP.
Sylvain Charlebois 01:15
I have as well.
Michael LeBlanc 01:17
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Fantastic. What a wonderful, wonderful city, a wonderful, it's kind of like the, you know, the cul-, could we call it the cultural capital of Ireland? I mean, it's not Dublin, it's a couple hours away. It's a fantastic city and JP is really just a spokesperson for the industry. In addition to talking about what he sees, and how his trends go, I've got his cookbook here. His first cookbook, which is 430 pages. (Crossover talk) it's a fantastic cookbook and I got a couple of things from it already. Anyway, now, you were on the road last week here in Toronto, what brought you to the six? Well,
Sylvain Charlebois 01:51
Well, I didn't stay in the six, I actually went west to Guelph, first of all, to visit GoodLeaf, a vertical farming facility. They're also building a plant in Calgary and Montreal, they're, they're, they're doing this in partnership with McCain, what an, and what an incredible company, I was very impressed, it's so precise, the production is very, it's all focused on sustainability. And frankly, they're, they're, they're up and running. They're doing some great work. They're listed on Longo's, you can go to Longo's, Loblaws it serves, mostly in Ontario, but they're looking at expanding beyond the GTA and that we'll soon see GoodLeaf products all over the country. So, it's great, vertical farming is high, it's capital intensive.
Michael LeBlanc 02:16
Sure, sure.
Sylvain Charlebois 02:18
Endeavor, as you probably know, but they're actually doing it well. It's just that they need to be successful. And they're also looking into microgreens, which is also I think, a fascinating concept, which is often not well understood by consumers, but they're looking at making some inroads with microgreens as well. And then the next day, I was actually keynoting at the Pork Canada show. It was fun, it was a fun event, it was a fireside chat with the chair. And we just spent an hour just tal-, talking about the future of the industry. And there were, you know, many heavy hitters in the room. There was Maple Leaf, Olymel. Most of the traders were there, lots of traders were there. And of course, they're concerned about the, the, the swine flu affecting the entire world. It hasn't come to Canada yet, but it's just a matter of time. So, that was the big topic of the day.
Michael LeBlanc 03:47
All right, well, let's jump into the news. So, some folks may have been watching the Superbowl on Sunday night, but you would have missed a very important announcement and a great show the Best Sommelier World Competition and announced the best sommelier in the world, the world is from Latvia crowned Sunday night.
Sylvain Charlebois 03:58
Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 03:59
It's not typically where I think of, of (crossover talk) crowned in Paris in front of 4000 spectators a Raimonds Tomsons beat a contestant from Northern Europe, Denmark, Nina Jensen, who was runner up and, (crossover talk).
Sylvain Charlebois 04:19
We almost had a female sommelier, as the best sommelier in the world for the first time.
Michael LeBlanc 04:24
That's her second time I understand as runner up and the third was Reeze Choi from Hong Kong. Now, you know if we put, (crossover talk).
Sylvain Charlebois 04:30
All from China, yeah, that's right. Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 04:33
You put these three countries together where I typically think about, you know, wine. So, what is, what are they, what does France think about all that?
Sylvain Charlebois 04:38
Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 04:39
You know, have they kind of lost their lost step here. And,
Sylvain Charlebois 04:44
Well, when you look at the list of past champions, France obviously dominates there. There are many French sommeliers who have actually won this very prestigious competition. But when I saw the announcement last night, I thought, wow, this is, this is interesting. The winner is actually from a very small country. Latvians actually do drink wine, they produce wine. But it's not huge. Not a huge industry. Obviously, it's a very small country. But, but, but seeing China at number three was interesting I thought. And yeah, I mean, there's lots of, I mean, wi-, I think wine in general is becoming much more internationalised, which is great. I mean, it gives a chance for the New World, the New World, which would include Canada, of course, to, you know, to make some, some, some things interesting in the wine, instead of just seeing a couple of countries dominate the world.
Michael LeBlanc 05:41
Well, speaking of a live show and competition, the parliamentary Ag Committee is back together, I think, again, looking at food inflation. You've testified, the grocers testified. What are the next steps here? Talk about the committee?
Sylvain Charlebois 05:53
Well, last week, so they were back. CFIG was there, Metro was there. And I believe this week SeaTac from Quebec is there. They're inviting other people, Jim Stanford, my best friend, economist, is actually going to be testifying, I believe, this week. So, they're getting different points of views, different angles. But I did, I did speak this morning to Gary Sands, the Executive Director of the Canadian Federation for Independent Grocers. And his experience last week was quite frustrating. MPs are still just focused on Metro, Sobeys and Loblaws. They don't really understand the industry out there. They're not even trying. That's the frustrating part. So, the CFIG came out of the experience being very frustrated. But the bottom line, I think what's important is that MPs need to ask the right questions. It's not just about the three main grocers. There's more to it than that.
Michael LeBlanc 06:55
Now is he frustrated because they're not talking about the Indies or the cont-, constituents he representative because they're not going backwards in the supply chain, (crossover talk) to speak is that, is that,
Sylvain Charlebois 07:04
By looking at the big picture. Yeah, I mean, we saw what happened with milk dumping a few years ago, a few weeks ago. I mean, there's lots of things that do happen on the farm, in processing, that would require some attention. Some verticals are more pro bat-, problematic than others, the focus is not as granular as it should. And that's the problem. It's not just about the whole thing. Again, I will repeat myself. But when you look at financial statements of grocers, it's hard to see any evidence of, of, of abuse or exaggerations. I mean, margins have actually remained quite the same for in fact, Loblaws last quarter, you saw its gross margin drop. So, it's really, they're, they're using record this, record that and they seem to, that noise coming from that campus is, is overpowering the narrative, unfortunately.
Michael LeBlanc 08:04
Let's take a twist here. Let's talk about AquaBounty genetically modified salmon farm in your part of the world. Now you've, you've mentioned once or twice in other times we've chatted about people who don't know it's on the shelf, it's not probably marked up. We talked about that to Josh Tetrick about when he starts rolling out his processed chicken, what, what went on here AquaBounty is going out of business and what are your thoughts on that?
Sylvain Charlebois 08:29
Actually, it's not going out of business. Instead of producing the fish in PEI, it's actually going to be producing the fish in the United States where, let's face it, the market is much more interesting. And in Canada, we saw big grocers just boycott it, they just boycott the product. They boycotted the product a few years ago when it was introduced. But chances are I mean, a lot of Canadians have actually eaten the product without knowing because it's not labelled yet. And so the product will be,
Michael LeBlanc 09:01
Restaurants or through grocers, (crossover talk).
Sylvain Charlebois 09:03
Restaurants processed foods if they're salmon in there. I mean, the salmon itself costs 30 to 40% less to produce.
Michael LeBlanc 09:13
Up in smoke Canopy closes their iconic plant in Smith Falls. I mean I was, I went there as a kid you know, the chocolate factory that was in Smith falls and it was a Cinderella story gone wrong. I mean Canopy is just you know, at one time the biggest cannabis producing company in the world, and you know, they got bought and a whole bunch of stuff going on. I mean, and the cannabis market continues to grow. So, what's, what's going on here? What's going on with Canopy do you think?
Sylvain Charlebois 09:38
It was a nice story for Smith Falls. I mean, he can't really create 800 jobs. It just falls that easily. I mean, you have to, so it was, it was, it was great news for them. A while back, I think they opened up in 2016 I believe.
Michael LeBlanc 09:54
Early days in medicine. Yeah, they started with medical cannabis.
Sylvain Charlebois 09:56
Yeah, I think Hershey closed in 2013, if I remember. And so it was, it was a great story. But unfortunately, the bubble is still bursting. I mean, that's basically what's going on. There was too much hype, there's too much control, the promise of, of legalising cannabis is, has been muted by a very restrictive cannabis act in Canada, unfortunately, and Smith Falls is paying for it. Yeah. Were you surprised?
Michael LeBlanc 10:26
You know, they're a big player and that's a big decision to take. But when you're foreign owned, it's not, it doesn't mean anything to you. So, I think.
Sylvain Charlebois 10:34
Yeah, exactly.
Michael LeBlanc 10:36
Commentary, right. Just another group of people from another country, (crossover talk) to work. Saputo blows the doors off with an 85% year-over-year performance. Yeah, what's going on here? I mean, is this, you know, should we, should we have them in front of the parliamentary committee and talk about that? I mean, we don't see these kind of numbers coming out of the grocers, what's going on here?
Sylvain Charlebois 10:55
Yeah, they're, they're hidden. Saputo is doing very well. And then you gotta wonder why they do so well. And you have to wonder why those numbers aren't attracting as much attention Loblaw actually will post its results and everyone goes gangbusters. But if Saputo actually breaks records, barely anyone will notice except maybe you and I. So, it's the exposure. You know, it's quite bizarre.
Michael LeBlanc 11:22
Not to criticize success or anything. I don't want to criticize success. But I mean, it just kind of jumps out at you like, Hey, that's a big number. We should, we should, consider this in the overall,
Sylvain Charlebois 11:32
We're very happy for Saputo, I'm not a shareholder of Saputo myself. But I mean that we're very happy. But at the same time, it's just, it's always a bit ironic to see some companies being hit so hard by public opinion versus other processors who do actually make good money. I mean, it's not just Saputo, other processes are actually making really good money these days.
Michael LeBlanc 11:57
So, new labour data out of Stats Canada came out last week. And you went,
Sylvain Charlebois 12:03
On Friday.
Michael LeBlanc 12:05
Yeah, you went through the data and only two sectors jumped out that we're employing less people than 2020. Agriculture, accommodation, hospitality. So, agriculture is down 12%, hospitality is down 10%. Is this a shift? Or is it just a shortage of workers? Like, there seems to be a lot of open roles for this, we'll talk, actually we'll talk about this, (crossover talk)
Sylvain Charlebois 12:22
The only two, the only two industries where they're still in the negative despite all the jobs being created since the start of COVID. Were, were plus I think, 800,000 now. We still have two industries that are in the negative. And that would be agriculture and accommodation and food services. Both are food related. With agriculture, I think it's just, it's just a sign of the times. In 2013, 1.6% of the Canadian workforce was in agriculture. Now we're down to 1.2%. So, we're actually getting closer to one. I think it's just because farms are bigger, more efficient and more automated, let's face it. So, I think it's predictable. They are, the food and service one, that's problematic. I mean, we're still at minus 150,000. And I'm not sure if we're going to get back to the 1.25 million. So yeah, I'm sure you weren't surprised, Michael.
Michael LeBlanc 13:32
Well, no, between the number of places looking for work, and now you're, you're having a lot of automation come in and say listen, how can we do this better without people but as our guest JP talks about, you can't run a restaurant without great people.
So, I think it is this paradigm shift that you described as a paradigm shift last episode. I think it's a paradigm shift in the industry and the combination of hospitality. It seems like the demand is coming back in several sectors. Not all right, because people aren't, aren't still at work. They're not quite travelling. I think you're gonna have a better year for tourism in Canada this year and around the world. I'm not sure you'll get back to 2019 levels, we still don't have what it was 300,000 Chinese tourists used to come to Canada now they just send balloons apparently and fly them over our countries. It's a whole different story there. Anyway, so I don't know what's going on there.
And, let me get back into the restaurant sector a bit. There is someone hiring by the way, Karen's Diner is coming to Victoria, Edmonton, Calgary and Toronto. Do you know Karen's Diner?
Sylvain Charlebois 14:35
Karen's Diner, no. Tell me more.
Michael LeBlanc 14:39
Well, you know, this internet meme during COVID about Karen's,
Sylvain Charlebois 14:43
Right.
Michael LeBlanc 14:44
It's just you know obstinate people who unfortunately became Karen's. Well, there's a whole diner called Karen's Diner and I glimpsed at the ad it said we're looking for shit staff wanted. So, basically, they serve your meal, they throw it on the table, they give you the finger and then tell you to F-off. There you go. They closed the cap on the hiring with,
Sylvain Charlebois 14:57
Do we get good tips?
Michael LeBlanc 15:00
Well, I think they never liked the tips they get, they tell everybody to F-off because they didn't give enough tip. I think that's like dinner theatre. It's very funny.
Sylvain Charlebois 15:20
It's really funny. I've never actually, well, I think I heard about it like once but yeah, I don't know if it's gonna come to Halifax. Yeah. Are you gonna go and try it?
Michael LeBlanc 15:30
I Absolutely will. Right now, it's Victoria, Edmonton, Calgary and Toronto. So maybe, maybe you'll come to Halifax.
Sylvain Charlebois 15:37
I know a few people that would qualify to work there.
Michael LeBlanc 15:40
Well, there you go, you could send them, you could send him the announcement.
Well, let's, let's, let's, let's take a quick break. Not a quick break. But let's take a break from the news and then we got a couple more things to talk about.
And let's get to our interview with JP McMahon, the Michelin starred chef, a Renaissance man, LOPhD, no ordinary and a great spokesman for the industry, which was such a treat to talk to him. So, let's have a listen to that now. JP, welcome to The Food Professor podcast.
How are you doing this afternoon?
JP McMahon 16:11
I'm doing very well. Thank you.
Michael LeBlanc 16:12
Thanks for joining us. Where are we finding you today? Are you in your restaurant or home near your hometown? Tell us where we're finding you?
JP McMahon 16:19
At home at the moment in the west side of, just west of Galway city. And I will be in the restaurant later on. We have a cooking class tonight that starts so we'll be making some bread at seven o'clock my time. But for the moment. I'm just talking to you guys.
Michael LeBlanc 16:37
Sylvain has not had the pleasure. You and I have had the pleasure to meet here in Toronto. And we've chatted and thank you again for joining us. Let's, so I know lots about you. But for those who may not, tell people who you are, your journey, your journey to being a chef, a restaurateur and author, a painter, PhD I mean, you're we have two PhDs on the call today. So, I'm feeling a little intimidated. You are an Irish Ambassador for food. So, who are you? And what do you do for a living?
JP McMahon 17:08
Well, I always, I always say I'm very confused. And I think that the list, the list of honours you gave me says I still love a lot and I try to be a boss, I continue to do things. So yeah, I mean, I started cooking when I was about 15. My first, I think, my first or second job, I suppose I just, I just liked cooking. And I think when I left school, I didn't really know what I wanted to do initially. So, I thought cooking was a good way to travel around and to make a bit of money. People always seem to eat and need cooks and chefs. So, I did that for a couple of years.
JP McMahon 17:31
And then I went back to college to try and escape cooking. And as you can see, I didn't do very well. I did alright, in college though 20 years later, I got a PhD in drama, which was another passion of mine, (inaudible) we opened our first restaurant in 2008. So, it's actually that the restaurant is celebrating his 15th birthday this year. And yeah, it has been a very organic process. I mean, I don't think I ever sat down and said, I want to open up three or four restaurants, I want to set up a food symposium or write a couple of cookbooks. I think it was always kind of do one step and then, and then see what would happen, see what would happen.
Michael LeBlanc 18:34
Yeah, it's a very creative journey for you, you're a painter as well. I mean, you're, you're just a Renaissance individual. Let's talk about your restaurants. Tell us where they are and the concepts behind them. Again, I know a bit about them and what inspires you.
JP McMahon 18:48
Yeah, so just, just until last year, we had three restaurants we have two, two at the moment, I say at the moment because we just, we closed one to kind of take stock and we still have the building and that, we just, we don't know what we're going to do with it yet.
But for your listeners, our first restaurant, our flagship, is still Cava Bodega, the tapas bar we opened in 2008. And it's our busiest restaurant. It serves a couple of 100 people a day during the summer months. It's a Spanish kind of concept. And we always, myself and my business partner, always loved Spain and we travelled there quite a lot. And I suppose I liked that style of eating the way in which the Spanish eat later as well and a bit more convivial.
And then in 2011, we opened up Aniar which is, I suppose, you could say which is our, the most famous restaurant we have because it won a Michelin star in 2012. So, that's had a star now for 10 years and hopefully, it will continue. I think the guide is out at the end of March and so hopefully it will continue to hold its star. And that, that restaurant kind of began as a way of investigating Irish food, I suppose very much in response to the Nordic food movement and new Nordic cuisine, a kind of how to look at a region's born ingredients and turn them into, into something that, that resembles a cuisine or as a food. So, I mean, we didn't use anything that wasn't produced in Ireland like lemons or black pepper or limes, or spices, all of these different, different things.
And we started from there, and we're still going, and it was closed during COVID for 18 months. But we reopened last year. And we had a really great year, a lot of, a lot of people from all around the world and that so hopefully this year will be, will be the same.
Michael LeBlanc 20:57
Oh, fantastic. And what, we want to talk about the Michelin Star program, it just came to Canada, we'll get to that a bit later and get your perspectives on that.
So, like Canada, the Irish restaurant industry was, was pummelling during the COVID era, as you said, you were, you were closed for 18 months, it was not dissimilar here. I think that the industry is still recovering now, you know, is it because of the, the industry shutdown or other factors affecting people and diners.
I mean, talk about your experiences, is it hard to find people? It feels at least in Canada, there's a lot of people who left the industry and went to do other things and haven't come back. And, you know, I listened to, we've had a guest on the show, Corey Mintz, and he talked about, you know, this, listen, it's 14 hours with knives and fire. And it's not easy, it's not for everybody and talk about your perspectives around, you know, not about COVID, we're not a history lesson, but about how you see the industry writ large today.
JP McMahon 21:52
Yeah, I mean, it was, it was a difficult time. And I think it is, I suppose it established some type of break in the habits that we have, both as chefs and, and as the front of house staff, but also as diners. And so a lot of people who may have gone out a lot all of a sudden didn't go out at all. And then on the opposite side, a lot of people who worked their whole life in the industry for maybe 10 or 15 years, realised that, you know, maybe this is a good time to change and do something, do something different. And we're still I think every place in the world is still responding to that fact. I mean, that was one of the reasons why we closed our wine bar Tartare.
JP McMahon 22:08
We just, we, we had three places to kind of reignite after COVID and staffed them again. And we couldn't, we just couldn't seem to get it right. We gave it six, six or nine months and staff would come and go, we couldn't get the right staff, we couldn't get enough staff. And in the end, we felt that running two businesses was better than running three, with not enough, with not enough staff. And we could feel the staff as well, where we're feeling the pressure as well.
And so, it has changed things in the industry. I think, as you said, I mean, the days are long. And even when they're not long, it's still a particular type of person that works in, in hospitality. And you could say over the last 15 or 20 years less and less Irish people work in hospitality, and I don't know if it's the same in Canada. I know when I started maybe everyone in the kitchen was Irish. And now I think about out of our 50 staff we might have five staff that are Irish. And people are from all over the place, but it is and I don't know if that's the rise of big tech and people going to work elsewhere.
JP McMahon 23:07
I mean, I think it's the same in retail. The first job I took when I finished school was working in a shop and, and everyone was Irish, and I still know the same shop and I went in and there isn't everyone is Asian now and I don't know if that's just the way things go. The way things have gone in the world but it seems that those two types of industry require a lot of standing on your feet, a lot of manual labour do require a lot of, if not, if it's not necessity they require a lot of love and people really have to enjoy the industry. I'm not saying that we've got a wonderful 15-year-old doing work experience at the moment and it gives me hope he's, he's in here and he wants to learn but it's still. They're, they're few and far, you know.
Sylvain Charlebois 24:43
Let's talk more about your talent management strategy. There's been a lot of talk about taping and, and pooling and temptation and what are some of the things that you're doing now that you weren't doing say, two, three years ago when it comes to you staffing, talent. Are you expecting, are you trying to keep your staff as long as possible? What's changed in the last couple of years?
JP McMahon 25:11
Well, yeah, I definitely think staff retention is a big thing. Now we, we, I suppose I think we provide very good conditions in terms of the way in which our staff work. I mean, I've always been quite conscious of working as a chef, and then, I suppose transitioning to be like a chef restaurateur. I mean, I was always acutely aware that we needed to create a nice working environment. So, that hasn't, that hasn't changed. But I do think I'm more conscious now of the amount of staff working, and trying to get them to work less, because I think, particularly before COVID, I mean, everyone just worked. And it was kind of like a given and you just kind of keep on working, you're required to do more hours, but I'm just very conscious now of trying not to, I suppose not to push the staff as much as I possibly did in the past, and making sure they're, they're happy chatting to them.
JP McMahon 25:39
So, there is a lot of administrative work on that side. And I still don't think I get to, with the amount of staff we have I get to see, to see everyone and it is difficult, but it is, it is an employee's market at the moment. And places are, are, are, quite, can quite easily take, take two or four, two or four of your staff members. And then you gotta start all over again. And I mean, sometimes it's just a question of them moving on. But other times, you just have to really try and balance those things out. You know,
Sylvain Charlebois 26:44
I'm sure you're familiar with the restaurant called Noma. It was known as likely the best restaurant in the world for a while. It did announce recently that it was closing. How did you react when you heard that? And what does it say to all of us in terms of where the industry is going?
JP McMahon 27:08
I do think yeah, it's a post-COVID decision. And I mean, it's a very different decision. I think that many restaurants have to take, I mean, Noma. I have eaten six or seven times. I know the guys quite well. It is, I suppose, like in the calibre of restaurants like the same with football teams that win the Champions League, and I suppose they feel it necess-, necessary to continually reinvent themselves. And that's not the case for every restaurant.
And so, I don't think it signals the end of fine dining in any capacity. I do think it signals a shift in our understanding of what restaurants want to do. Now whether or not customers want to follow suit and I think the issues around staging and I mean, we take stages in the in, in our restaurants, we take about two at a time. I think that sometimes I think that there have been customers who read about these things and say Oh God, those terrible stages are working for free. But I mean, if you suggested to those customers that, do you want to pay three and a half 1000 euro for your meal?
Sylvain Charlebois 28:21
That's right.
JP McMahon 28:23
They might say Well, no, I don't and so there is a little bit of full outrage I think sometimes. I see the benefits; I mean from having staged myself and from now nurturing stages I see the benefits when it's done well. Of course, like every system it is open to exploitation. And but for me focusing on one restaurant as opposed to the entirety of restaurants in France that practice staging is, is, is just looking for an ea-, for like a straw dog and so I do think like the closure of Noma or it's, it's reassessments like it wants to turn into a pop-up somehow with mixed with a (inaudible). I don't know how that model will work for them financially, but it does, I suppose make me reflect.
Sylvain Charlebois 29:08
How long, I'm just curious. JP, how long did you stage for when you started off? When, early on in your career?
JP McMahon 29:16
Oh, I staged here and there, like for different lengths of time. I mean, it was never any. It wasn't a protracted program. I spent a couple of days in Geranium and then in Noma and spent a bit of time in (inaudible) and I suppose I went, I went quite, I staged quite selectively,
Sylvain Charlebois 29:36
And you felt that you had the freedom to do so. Yeah, absolutely.
JP McMahon 29:39
Yeah, absolutely. And like I always have; I could still recommend it to young chefs and even Carlin who is with us. I say, you know, you should try and maybe, go and stage, in a place in London. I mean, sometimes I don't see the benefit of staging for 12 weeks. I know some restaurants like that, but sometimes I say look, you know what contact the restaurant and say, can I go in there for a week and learn from you guys, because I always see staging in much the same way as doing a college course, like, I mean, no one pays you to go to college, you got this, generally you got to pay to go to college, and then you learn things.
So, I actually think the benefit is on the stages. Because they go somewhere, and they get free knowledge. I mean, of course, they're giving their labour in return for this knowledge. But I definitely see the benefit of it. And it's just about, it's just knowing where to go. I mean, I certainly wouldn't send anyone, anywhere. And I certainly wouldn't send anyone anywhere, that I didn't feel they were going to get some benefit, or if I thought there was any sort of element of like exploitation, or they're just going to be doing their real task. But I'm saying that sometimes. I mean, sometimes repetitive tasks are part of the industry. And I mean, like, when you're prepping for 100 people, it's all repetition, you know?
Sylvain Charlebois 30:59
Yep. Talk to us about the Michelin program, you are an owner of a Michelin restaurant, it just entered the Canadian market, in both Toronto and Vancouver. What would be your message to Canadians right now, as we start, as we embark into, onto this Michelin road, we're just being introduced to the Michelin program, is it a good thing? What are your thoughts on that?
JP McMahon 31:29
It's like, I think having a Michelin star is like a double-edged sword. You know, it's a double-edged blade, like it has its pros and cons. And of course, you could probably say 90% of them are pros. I mean, it, it, it opens you out to, like an international market, Michelin are very, have a very consistent, consistent judging program around the world. So, you can be guaranteed that if you go to a one star, in, in France, in Ireland in Canada, in Tokyo, that the standard will be, will be, will be similar in terms of the quality of the food or of the, of this, of the service. And I think that it certainly, it certainly helps other restaurants, when you see someone who has a star and you want to go for one, it kind of, it, it, it kind of raises the whole standard in, in, in the field. And when Aniar got the Star, 12 years, 12 years ago. I think there was seven stars in Ireland at the time and now there's 22.
Sylvain Charlebois 31:57
Oh wow.
JP McMahon 31:58
And so, in that 12 year period, now we still haven't yet to get our first three stars, and I'm hoping this year, there are two restaurants that are very much. Chapter One, and I'm sure are very much I think heading in that direction. And we'd like to try and see if we can get a second star and it's about a process of refinement and, and waiting, waiting to be judged. And, and, and sometimes it's frustrating, because you don't, you don't, it's not like you can sit down and chat to them and give feedback. They come in, they eat and then they find out the following year, when the guy, (crossover talk).
Michael LeBlanc 32:19
You know they're there, right, you know they're there.
JP McMahon 32:22
Sometimes you do and sometimes they don't actually lately, they've, they've gone under the radar a bit more, I think with the, the kind of social media boom. And from smartphones from 2010,
Michael LeBlanc 32:28
It's hard to tell.
JP McMahon 32:30
2012 onwards, they did become a little more transparent and chatting tea and that, but they seem to have gone a little bit more into the background. And I suppose it's because once somebody knows, Michelin's are in town, they generally let everyone else know and I suppose they like to be able to, to eat anonymously. So, when the,
Sylvain Charlebois 32:39
Right.
JP McMahon 32:40
Restaurant is in, when we feed them, they want to just to, to, to be like any other customer because they don't, they wanted to see how it really is as opposed to oh, yeah, I know, this is Michelin, and I'm going to give them a better, better meal and better service. And,
Sylvain Charlebois 32:46
Right.
JP McMahon 32:47
Sometimes we do and sometimes, sometimes, sometimes we don't. I think the downside of it is that chasing stars is, is, is, is admirable, but sometimes it takes away from the fact that a lot of restaurants produce really good food and they're not designed for the star system. And that doesn't take away from what the quality of the food they have on offer.
I mean our Tapas bar, we, we, we’re in the Michelin Guide of course and that's, Michelin have a plate system and a bib system and different, different standards but it's not, sometimes it's not useful to try and only focus on, on stars. I think it's much more important to focus on food and let the stars come, as opposed to opening restaurants that said, okay, let's open a restaurant and get one star or get two stars because sometimes what happens is, particularly at the higher-end, you know restaurants open, a lot of money gets invested into them, and then stars never come. You know, and I think that's, that's something to reflect upon.
Certainly, on the Canadian side, I think, because we've seen plenty of places in England where millions are invested. And then nothing is, no stars are forthcoming.
JP McMahon 33:19
So, I think, for me, it's, you have to be careful because, of course, stars bring prestige and financial gains. And sometimes it's, it's seen as an easy route to, well let's just build a fine dining restaurant and put a chef in there. And hopefully, he'll get one or two stars, and then we can start charging more, whereas I favour the organic approach where you set up a restaurant, you try and do the best food you, you, you can do. And, and you're rewarded in that capacity.
Michael LeBlanc 33:47
You know, I wanted to ask your advice to restaurateurs and the industry people listening, I wanted to ask it in a format of two starts and one stop. So, your advice to the listeners, two things they should start doing? And one thing they should maybe stop doing or, or do less? What do you know, how do you think about that? And (crossover talk).
JP McMahon 33:59
Two starts and one stop. Well, I mean, we did, I mean, as a restauranteur, I mean, certainly two of the starts, will be one, certainly is taken care of by your staff. I mean, I think what COVID has shown us is that we are nothing without our staff, I mean, you can have the best restaurant in the world. But if you don't have anyone to work in it, it ain't a restaurant. And, and I suppose that, that is something I've, I've, I have spoken to about with many chefs and restaurateurs around the world since, since COVID. And like having, having a team and making sure that team are happy, and they feel a part of what you're doing. There are many ways to do that. But I think that's certainly, certainly one of the starts.
And I think the second, I mean, for me, it's important to always keep going, keep going forward. I mean, it's, it's, I'm not one to rest on my laurels. And whether it's a cookbook I've just written or the star that I have, for me, it's very much I see restauranteuring as a process. And it's always about, well, where are we going to and it won't, you won't always succeed, I mean, sometimes you will fail. And I think that those failures can be if you learn from those failures, then I think that they can be taken as successes.
JP McMahon 35;25
And I think the, the stop, I would say, I mean, this is definitely a COVID learning, I would say stop working so much. Because I mean, I think before COVID, I tried to work every single hour possible, whether it was a day on or day off, or, and it's very easy as a restauranteur to fall into that trap. Because the restaurant doesn't need to be open, you can be on emails, doing menus, doing social media, and I still struggle with it. And all of a sudden you have a young family and you're, you just keep on going and you're like I have to work I have to work. And I think one of the learnings from COVID was that sometimes it's okay to take a day or two off, or sometimes it's okay not to, not to be in service, like the objective of creating a good restaurant is not for you to be the focus of that restaurant and for customers to see you all the time.
The object is to create a really good experience that works with or without you. And I think that, that many industries know that, that the model is you set up your business. You, and then, and then that's it, you let it go like a child. But for some reason restaurants have this opposite idea where we're required to yeah, we have to go in and we have to see the chef, (inaudible) he needs to be on the pass and like I really try and give over the authority now much more and, and while I am there, behind the scenes orchestrating everything, I think it's important to, to go home and spend time with the family so much, you know.
Michael LeBlanc 37:13
Well, you've, you've, you're such an articulate spokesperson for the industry. What's next?
JP McMahon 38:55
Yeah, so we have another cookbook that is literally going to print today. We've been working on it for a number of years. And it's called, "An Alphabet of Aniar". So, it's not so much a recipe book, as opposed to a reflection on the, on the, on the industry, but also on Irish cuisine. So, the full title is, ‘An Alphabet of Aniar: Notes for a New Irish Cuisine’. And I suppose I wanted to take stock after 12 years of Aniar and take stock of what we've been doing and draw a line under it. And see, and I suppose and see what we can, what we can go do for-, do further. Because I think definitely, I felt that they didn't write all these things down and somehow document them. We might lose what we had been doing and maybe COVID gave me that little bit of anxiety. You know why, what would haven't reopened.
Michael LeBlanc 40:00
Right.
JP McMahon 40:01
What would we have to show that we'd been there 12 years. And so, this book was a way of marking the moment and that is going to be out St. Patrick's Day. So, the 17th of March. We're launching it in Copenhagen, with some friends there. And, and I hope that really that goes well.
Michael LeBlanc 40:15
So, will we see you with a YouTube cooking channel anytime soon?
JP McMahon 40:19
Yeah, I don't know if I, if I ever get a YouTube cooking channel I've just about, I've just about a capacity of all the things that I, that I do. And as you mentioned at the beginning, I mean, as, as well as doing painting. I also like writing plays and that. And sometimes I feel I don't give that enough attention. So, I mean, I'm certainly, I have a few cookbooks in the, in draft form. I have a fish cookbook which I wrote during COVID. And that maybe, that I might find a publisher. I'm also working, working on another one for next year. So, I mean, the fact for me is I love writing. And so, it's never really a difficult thing to do because writing and cooking for me, as I see as two very, two very integral, integral things.
Sylvain Charlebois 41:11
Well, JP, thank you so much for your time.
Michael LeBlanc 41:13
All right. Well, that was JP. I had the chance to meet Sylvain. He came to, he was brought by my friends at Enterprise Ireland to Toronto on St. Patrick's Day a couple of years ago. And he cooked for us at the Sheridan,
Sylvain Charlebois 41:26
On St. Patrick's Day.
Michael LeBlanc 41:28
On St. Patrick's Day. So, it was a big event. And he cooked, (crossover talk).
Sylvain Charlebois 41:34
The luck of the Irish.
Michael LeBlanc 41:37
Towards the end there. We got a little, we got a little junked up in technology. But we sorted it all out. So, thanks again to JP for joining us.
Sylvain Charlebois 41:38
Yeah, it was a great interview overall. Yeah, a great innovator and very successful. So, I'm glad that he survived COVID. And you can feel that he has a very different perspective of life coming out. So, which is great.
Michael LeBlanc 41:53
A couple of last things. So we're coming up on the one year anniversary of Russian, Russia's invasion of Ukraine. (Crossover talk) we do this on camera, so for those of who are listening, (crossover talk). I'm wearing my Slava Ukraini, (inaudible) Ukraine shirt, the carnage continues. What do we, what do we think about, you know, the one-year anniversary coming up? Let's focus on the food industry. I mean, that was a big part of your concern this time last year. How are you, how are you thinking about what we should be expecting? (Crossover talk).
Sylvain Charlebois 42:26
Well, my concern with Russia is that they, I mean, many, many articles are suggesting that they haven't been impacted by sanctions at all. I mean, they're, they had a record year when it comes to exports last year, somebody's lying but now they're, we're starting to see reports from the World Bank from the IMF, showing that Russia's GDP is starting to fall by three to 5%. In 2023, we're expecting that so, so they're starting, we're starting to see signs that the Russian regime is being impacted by sanctions and that's our hope. I mean, that's really, this conflict can last for a long time, if Russia doesn't feel impacted economically, or its people are not impacted economically. So, there are signs that Russia's economy is being weakened by sanctions which is to be honest, good news, because it could actually push the regime to, you know, I think differently about its decision to invade a democratic peaceful country.
Michael LeBlanc 43:35
Let's talk about it next week. I want to talk next week and,
Sylvain Charlebois 43:40
Absolutely, yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 43:42
Let's talk about the implications because they're so important in terms of food and farming and, and the trade and let's talk about that next week. Its impact here in Canada on, on what we grow. Now, speaking of what we grow, you were looking at some interesting stats around the productivity of farmland. Now, this brings us back to our conversation with all kinds of different things from earlier in the season. What are you thinking about, I mean, some big, big numbers in terms of productivity? What's behind that, do you think?
Sylvain Charlebois 44:06
Well, you know, I've been, I've been looking at the price of farmland around the world and actually, Canada is an outlier. I mean, we've seen so, since 2001. farmland has gone up in price by 334%.
Michael LeBlanc 44:14
Wow.
Sylvain Charlebois 44:15
Yeah, and over 200% since 2016, farmland if you look at the US since 2016 it's up, prices are up 27%. But in terms of prices, the average price in the America per acre is 3800 US and Canada is 3800 Canadian, so we're catching up to the Americans and I don't see it as this is solely bad news and to reflect on our conversation with Robert Andgelic a few weeks ago,
Michael LeBlanc 44:29
Right, right, right.
Sylvain Charlebois 44:31
I think he's the future. Farmland is going to have to be managed very differently, you have the investment community coming in with, with its set of expertise, investing in farmland. And of course, a guy like Robert wants his (inaudible) to be successful. So, he brings in a wealth of knowledge, when it comes to soil science, how to manage farms, etc. And you have farmers, operators, tenants, who actually are trying to increase yields as much as possible, and they do a very good job at it. So, I actually do see this as good news for rural Canada if you actually increase the value of land, while you've increased the wealth in regions as well. So, I know that in Canada, a lot of people say oh, it's higher taxes. it's penal-, it penalises farmers, younger generations can't go into farming. Well guess what? More than half of young farmers under the age of 35 are renters. And they're happy and they're efficient. So, there's this rhetoric saying that, you know, because farmland is becoming so expensive, it's going to be difficult for people to go into agriculture, I beg to differ. Actually, I do think that there's going to be more investments in farming because they value a lot of funds. Investors like Robert will value farming in general.
Michael LeBlanc 46:29
Pension funds like to buy big infrastructure stuff.
Sylvain Charlebois 46:32
Manulife actually is buying some land as well. So, I think it's actually good news that we see that instead of just seeing just lying out there being, being orphaned.
Michael LeBlanc 46:45
All right, well, let's, let's leave on a positive note. We'll leave on that positive note,
Sylvain Charlebois 46:48
Exactly.
Michael LeBlanc 46:49
We'll wrap up this because we'll be back next week, because we're here every week now we're going (crossover talk) to crush too much stuff in here. Next week, I'm sure we'll, once again we have lots to talk about. We'll talk about the anniversary of the Russian invasion and what that means, what we think that means coming up and a whole bunch of other things that have come out. We've got great guests coming up, you know, going weekly, means we have twice as many guests and we're lining them up, and listen, it's just gonna be a pile of fun. So, for now, let's leave it there. I'm Michael LeBlanc, Growth Consultant, podcaster, keynote speaker, and you are?
Sylvain Charlebois 47:22
I'm The Food Professor Sylvain Charlebois.
Michael LeBlanc 47:25
All right everyone, have a safe week and we'll talk to you next week.
Sylvain Charlebois 47:30
Take care.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
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