This episode's guest is Michael Burgess, founder of Nerpy's hot sauces and marinades. We talk about Nerpy's origin story, what inspired Michael to get into the food business, and all about the products and what makes them different.But first, we cover Canada's food inflation numbers and if they are on track to match Sylvain's predictions from Canada's Food Price Report amongst other food industry news of the week.
This episode's guest is Michael Burgess, founder of Nerpy's hot sauces and marinades. We talk about Nerpy's origin story, what inspired Michael to get into the food business, and all about the products and what makes them different.
But first, we cover Canada's food inflation numbers and if they are on track to match Sylvain's predictions from Canada's Food Price Report.
Ukraine: One year later - Biden visits, Putin claps back opting out of the last nuclear treaty….after a year less disruption to the global food supply chain but many repercussions, including the government promising Canadian farmers they'd get their $35 million back
Next, the 6.3% escalator tax on beer coming into effect April 1 - one of the largest, if not the largest by percentage, and ask why.
Double double trouble cleanup in the drive-through: RBI cleaning house: Tim Hortons turfs key store owner amid a battle with franchisees over profitability and serves notice to the Board of Director members…and lastly, our good friends at Better Cart Analytics get funded
https://www.foodincanada.com/food-trends/cfin-awards-1-2m-to-five-foodtech-projects-154101/
About Michael
Meet Michael Burgess who hails from Kingston, Jamaica. Michael is an entrepreneur and foodie who was born in Kingston, where lived until his family moved to Canada in 1982. Michael Burgess’ story is one that goes from riding a donkey laden with fruits on his grandfather’s farm in Clarendon, Jamaica. To producing award winning hot sauces in Toronto, ON worthy of Toronto Life magazine’s Hall of Flame. Michael’s love of food is deeply rooted in his Jamaican heritage and culture which is what inspires his work. Michael is a Certified Sales Professional and believes in their philosophy of continual learning. His Post- Secondary education was completed at Seneca College in Toronto where he is a graduate from not one but three programs. He started with Accounting, followed by Business Administration-Entrepreneurship and lastly he finalized his studies with Business Administration-Management. In between his studies Michael worked as a manager for a few different companies. In 2008/2009 he looked at the Hot Sauce industry and began experimenting with sauces. By the fall of 2009 Nerpy’s Hot Sauces™, began. Nerpy’s is currently listed in grocery chains like Metro, Sobeys, Farm Boy as well as many other independent retailers and a few restaurants/caterers in Ontario.
Nerpy’s Inc. began in the fall of 2009 as a part time Hot Sauce venture. Nerpy’s Inc., now produces award winning sauces in Toronto, ON worthy of Toronto Life magazine’s Hall of Flame. The Scotch Bonnet peppers are a signature component of these products, many of which have won awards in and around the Greater Toronto Hamilton Area. This collection of sauces include a Mango Scotch bonnet Very Hot Sauce, a Pomegranate and Beet hot sauce, a Tamarind Jerk Seasoning, a Coconut Curry Seasoning, an All Purpose seasoning and a Tropical Pineapple &Appleton Rum infused BBQ Sauce. Nerpy’s Hot Sauces have won awards in competitions such as Jerk Warz (2016), The Heatwave Hot Sauce Expo (2019) and The Royal Winter Fair’s Hot Sauce Competition (2019). Michael’s Pomegranate Hot Sauce was recognized by Toronto Life Magazine as one of the Top twenty Hot Sauces in Toronto (2019).
Nerpy’s is now listed in over 150+ retail stores including major grocery chains like Metro, Sobeys, Farm Boy as well as many other smaller independent retailers and a few restaurants in caterers in Ontario.
Got to https://www.nerpys.ca to learn more about Nerpy’s amazing products or use the store locator for retailers across Ontario.
About Us
Dr. Sylvain Charlebois is a Professor in food distribution and policy in the Faculties of Management and Agriculture at Dalhousie University in Halifax. He is also the Senior Director of the Agri-food Analytics Lab, also located at Dalhousie University. Before joining Dalhousie, he was affiliated with the University of Guelph’s Arrell Food Institute, which he co-founded. Known as “The Food Professor”, his current research interest lies in the broad area of food distribution, security and safety. Google Scholar ranks him as one of the world's most cited scholars in food supply chain management, food value chains and traceability.
He has authored five books on global food systems, his most recent one published in 2017 by Wiley-Blackwell entitled “Food Safety, Risk Intelligence and Benchmarking”. He has also published over 500 peer-reviewed journal articles in several academic publications. Furthermore, his research has been featured in several newspapers and media groups, including The Lancet, The Economist, the New York Times, the Boston Globe, the Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, BBC, NBC, ABC, Fox News, Foreign Affairs, the Globe & Mail, the National Post and the Toronto Star.
Dr. Charlebois sits on a few company boards, and supports many organizations as a special advisor, including some publicly traded companies. Charlebois is also a member of the Scientific Council of the Business Scientific Institute, based in Luxemburg. Dr. Charlebois is a member of the Global Food Traceability Centre’s Advisory Board based in Washington DC, and a member of the National Scientific Committee of the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) in Ottawa.
About Michael
Michael is the Founder & President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company Inc. and a Senior Advisor to Retail Council of Canada and the Bank of Canada as part of his advisory and consulting practice. He brings 25+ years of brand/retail/marketing & eCommerce leadership experience with Levi's, Black & Decker, Hudson's Bay, Today's Shopping Choice and Pandora Jewellery.
Michael has been on the front lines of retail industry change for his entire career. He has delivered keynotes, hosted fire-side discussions with C-level executives and participated worldwide in thought leadership panels. ReThink Retail has added Michael to their prestigious Top Global Retail Influencers list for 2023 for the third year in a row.
Michael is also the president of Maven Media, producing a network of leading trade podcasts, including Remarkable Retail , with best-selling author Steve Dennis, now ranked one of the top retail podcasts in the world.
Based in San Francisco, Global eCommerce Leaders podcast explores global cross-border issues and opportunities for eCommerce brands and retailers.
Last but not least, Michael is the producer and host of the "Last Request Barbeque" channel on YouTube, where he cooks meals to die for - and collaborates with top brands as a food and product influencer across North America.
Michael LeBlanc 00:06
Welcome to The Food Professor Podcast Season 3, Episode 13 the baker's dozen episode. I'm Michael LeBlanc,
Sylvain Charlebois 00:12
And I'm The Food Professor, Sylvain Charlebois.
Michael LeBlanc 00:16
Well, Sylvain the news in the grocery food and restaurant industry keeps coming in. Our very special guest on this episode, Michael Burgess, creator and founder of Nerpy's sauces and condiments. And I'm coming to you live from Hollywood, I've always wanted to say that.
Sylvain Charlebois 00:28
Live in Hollywood.
Michael LeBlanc 00:30
That's it, We're at, I'm actually in West Hollywood for a few days.
Sylvain Charlebois 00:33
You're literally, in show business.
Michael LeBlanc 00:38
I'm here for a few days podcasting for the Global eCommerce Leaders Forum Conference. So, that's what brings me to, that's what brings me here. So, let's jump right into the news. And in fact, we have a little bit of breaking news. That's right. We got some numbers earlier this week. We're recording this on Tuesday. It is Thursday. So, it's already in the media. But the inflation rates came out for the month. What do you make of them? Is it, is it aligning to what you were thinking was going to happen in Canada's Food Price Report, what's, what make of you of these numbers?
Sylvain Charlebois 01:12
Sort of, it's not what we wished for. But it's not surprising, the food inflation rate is increasing, we were expecting a very difficult winter. And that's exactly what's going on. The good news, of course, is that the general inflation rate is actually dropping. It's down to 5.9%, which means that the Bank of Canada will reconsider a hike, while an interest rate hike is less likely, if you will in the next few months. But still, the gap between the general inflation rate and the food inflation rate is now at 4.5%. That's the highest since 2009. And for the first time in three years, our own food inflation rate is now higher than the West is where you are right now. So, yeah, so you can feel that really right now Canada, Canadian pre-market is, is starting to become a little bit more pricey, if you will, compared to other economies.
Michael LeBlanc 02:12
We should talk about Ukraine, and it's a one-year anniversary one year later. I mean, in the news, obviously, Biden visited earlier in the week, Putin (inaudible) back opting out of a nuclear treaty. Now, after a year of, how should I describe it, less disruption of the global food chain than you anticipated, but many, many repercussions, you know, including the government promising farmers that get $35 million back where, what, what’s your assessment of where we are today? And, and looking forward from, from a food perspective, of course, there's the tragedy of the whole thing. But you can speak to that as well. But just in terms of where you think the food industry is going into year two of the Russian invasion,
Sylvain Charlebois 02:52
The big thing we're watching right now is the grain deal. I mean, the conflict is the conflict. I don't think anybody was hoping that the conflict would last a year. Here we are. And frankly, I think that this conflict is not over. So, you have to think about food and, and logistics. And the big deal right now is, is, is the Russia-Turkey trade agreement, really, to actually allow for grains to exit the region. So, they did negotiate the last trade deal on November 19, for three months, and that deal will end in March. And so, they're meeting this week now to renegotiate another three months. And so those deals are going to be critical for, for inflation. We saw what happened last year, I mean, the invasion really created havoc, because we just didn't know how the region was going to react. And things did calm down once the deal was signed, later in the year. So, that's where we're at right now. We're hoping for some good, some good news over the next couple of weeks. So, that's the big thing that we're watching right now. What about you?
Michael LeBlanc 04:12
You know, in one way, I'm happy, it's gone a year, you know, the Ukraine, people have done amazing work, you know, strength to the Ukraine. And it's really a global conflict that I hope comes to the end soon, but I'm not optimistic about that in any way, shape, or form. So, I think we'll still be talking about it for many months to come, unfortunately. But from a food perspective, I guess I'm happy that when we first talked about this crisis, that you were very, very concerned about a global food famine based on, (crossover talk).
Sylvain Charlebois 04:23
And we kind of got, we, we, we, we were able to get out of that situation because of the grain deal. I mean, essentially, because there's a lot, there’s lots being produced in that region and nobody relied on a deal early on in the conflict. But now we can rely on this deal and things are moving along. And of course, there's, there's some disruption related to grain inspections, and there's some finger pointing back and forth, we, we get that. But things are flowing, things are getting out of the region, which is really the critical thing.
Michael LeBlanc 04:41
Let's turn our minds back to I guess back to inflation in Canada, and let's talk about let's talk about beer. There's, I had no idea this was going, I had no idea this was going on, of course, and, and this, this, what is it 6.3%, (crossover talk).
Sylvain Charlebois 05:27
That's why you are the co-host, man.
Michael LeBlanc 05:28
We do what we do. There you go.
Sylvain Charlebois 05:32
Exactly.
Michael LeBlanc 05:33
6.3% escalator tax on booze kicking in April one and I and you published a chart. And I think you got it from one of the Beer Associations that said we're this one of the largest by percentage of taxed beer, what's going on here? What, what, what's the government's objective? Is there an objective behind this? What's going on?
Sylvain Charlebois 05:49
Well, it's an escalator tax and without our Parliament's consent, there's an escalator clause that was actually adopted in the 2017 Budget. So, from 2018, there is an escalator tax based on the inflation rate. So, that tax on alcoholic beverages is added every single year, it hasn't really been an issue. It's been flying under the radar, just because the inflation rate wasn't really a big issue up until this year.
Michael LeBlanc 05:59
Right.
Sylvain Charlebois 06:00
And that's why we're looking at an increase of 6.3% as of April 1.
Michael LeBlanc 06:05
Huge, huge.
Sylvain Charlebois 06:07
Now, what that means to all of us is that when you buy booze, wine, spirits or beer, Canadians will actually spend an extra, an extra $225 million in taxes. Of course, it's a tax you don't see because when you go to the grocery store, they don't really, it's just added to the price you pay,
Michael LeBlanc 06:10
Sure, sure, sure.
Sylvain Charlebois 06:12
So, it's hidden in there. But why I think it's, it's another good example of how policies are actually making some food products expensive. And even if people out there are saying, well, it doesn't affect me because I don't drink alcohol. Well, it kind of does, because it really raises everything else. And, and as you know with stats, Michael, when, when things go up, then other things may actually follow along. So, it's not necessarily an increase that, that, that, we need right now. And, when you look at the data that was supplied by Beer Canada, and I think later this year, we'll actually have the President and CEO of Beer Canada joining us. I mean, it's, it's, it's all cumulative taxes, if you look at all taxes applied on beer, for example, we're the highest, we have the highest rate within the G7. So, we're already, we already have the highest rates so far. So, the 6.3% will just make we'll, we'll just solidify our leadership, fiscal leadership around the world. I guess around the world, it's a bit problematic.
Michael LeBlanc 07:44
Is this, I mean, there's a case if we think about tobacco, where the government purposely increased taxes, because they found that let's make it so expensive, people are going to stop smoking. And to a fair degree that worked. Is there a similar policy behind this? Or is this just kind of a runaway clause and attacks that's kind of taken on a life of its own? Do you have any, any thoughts on that?
Sylvain Charlebois 08:21
I think, I mean, I don't know how you feel about this. But I mean, you are enticing a black market to emerge. And that's kind of what happened with cannabis. Even though cannabis was illegal, they created this legal stream, but it did amplify the illicit market. And it's just when you look at jobs, the number of people working in the industry, there are 1000s, literally 1000s and 1000s of people working in the beer, wine and spirits industry in Canada. It's unfortunate that you're slowly making these products less affordable and it's not tobacco. I mean, we've been drinking alcohol for almost 10000 years, it's not, cigarettes were clearly a nuisance to the body but alcohol if you actually consume in moderation, it is absolutely fine.
Michael LeBlanc 09:13
But let's move on to a different beverage, coffee. So, double, double trouble here we gotta clean up in the drive thru RBI it's cleaning house. So, big, big news from, from Susan Krensky, who's actually will be a guest from us the Globe and Mail that Tim Hortons turfed some key store owner that,
Sylvain Charlebois 09:26
Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 09:27
And served some of the franchisees who are on the board of this, I guess it's a secondary association of franchisees. Not that, that's allowed. I remember there's a big kerfuffle about what was the Great White, and they formed a different Association,
Sylvain Charlebois 09:40
The Great White North Association.
Michael LeBlanc 09:43
Yeah, that became something, I actually just remembered that became something else and then now Tim Hortons kind of put their foot down, right.
Sylvain Charlebois 09:52
It’s now called the Alliance of Canadian Franchises. (Crossover talk) that's ACF.
Michael LeBlanc 09:59
Okay, okay, and, and so I guess.
Sylvain Charlebois 10:00
And I was involved with them for a while.
Michael LeBlanc 10:02
And so, I guess the idea here is Tim Hortons is saying, listen, get on board or off you go. But, what's your understanding of the, of the conflict here between the franchisees and,
Sylvain Charlebois 10:14
First of all, I think Susan, from the Globe and Mail is really on top of things. She's following that (inaudible) pretty closely. And I think it was, it was, it was not, it wasn't a secret to anyone that there was, there was a few going on between a group of franchisees and RBI since the acquisition of 3G Capital. It's been a few years now. And I think really what you saw was a clash in terms of different philosophies, you know, RBIs model is pretty clear. It's about cost management, sunk cost management, and they wanted to manage a network of franchisees that would own and operate at least a dozen stores if not more like Burger King, the average, you know, the franchisee, and Burger King will own 150 stores. So, Burger King, which is part of RBI, is a network of major companies. Not Tim Hortons at Tim Hortons, you have many people out there, which will own a couple or three stores, maybe five stores, (crossover talk).
Michael LeBlanc 11:17
I mean, that was my perception of Tim Hortons is, is, it's a, you know, a couple of three stores. (Crossover talk). Yeah, yeah, but I know in the franchise world, because I've dealt with that, you know, there could be major owners of multiple, multiple. So, your, your thinking, is they; A), they'd like to, you know, not have this group hanging out, picking around the edges and B), they just want bigger, bigger operators for more efficiency. Is that kind of where they're going?
Sylvain Charlebois 11:40
I can't go into the details. But it’s pretty nasty right now between ACF and RBI. And that's why they're starting, I think they're starting to actually, they're starting to play hardball publicly. And I mean, to actually let go of franchises that have been actually on for more than 20 years. That's pretty nasty. I mean, to do something like that you gotta really be sure. And so we're expecting more, we're expecting more. So, I think, because there are a lot of franchisees within the RBI network that actually do own Tim Hortons franchisees that are pretty, they’re pretty happy with the current regime with RBI. It's just right now, you still have many, many franchises who are, who are, not very comfortable with RB, RBIs approach in terms of costing, supplies, (crossover talk), strategy with menu management. They actually made a lot of RBI early on and made a lot of mistakes.
Sylvain Charlebois 13:00
But I would say that in the last couple of years, I would say that RBI is reading the room. It's much better now. But it's a campaign. I'm thinking of Justin Bieber's campaign that was a masterclass. I mean, it worked really well for them. So, they're starting to really get a better grip of, of the, of the brand itself, and they're growing in China. There's over 2000 stores in China now. So, the growth is there.
Michael LeBlanc 13:12
Well, all right, let's take a break from the news. And let's hear from the founder and CEO of Nerpy's, Michael Burgess. Michael, welcome to The Food Professor Podcast. How are you doing this morning?
Michael Burgess 13:22
I'm great. It's good to be here. Thank you very much for the invite.
Michael LeBlanc 13:26
Well, it's fantastic to speak with you. I've met or come across you a couple times and enjoyed your product and, and Sylvain and I were talking, and we said let's, let's get Michael on let's talk about Nerpy's. So, (crossover talk) thank you for joining us.
Michael Burgess 13:38
Well, it's good to be here as, as I mentioned earlier, it's my first podcast so I'm very happy to be on board and charting a new, new direction, in cyberspace.
Michael LeBlanc 13:49
Well, perfect. Let's, let's, jump right in. Tell us about yourself, your background and what you do for a living?
Michael Burgess 13:57
I'm Michael Burgess. I'm the founder and CEO of a company called Nerpy's Inc. I started the company to see what the hot sauce business was all about a little part time idea, venture kind of thing and started the company back in 2009 around a time when we were in that recession 2008-2009. I was looking for a little, a little side venture to maybe supplement my income. I was working in the corporate world working at another company. But yeah, just looked at this and I came across an article that talked about the hot sauce business and how it was booming in the US and internationally. And I thought it would be a pretty neat arena to dive into and see what you know what could come of it.
Michael LeBlanc 14:47
Did you always have an interest in food? Did you have a food background? Just, just an entrepreneurial background? Tell us a little bit about that.
Michael Burgess 14:53
Yeah, more of an entrepreneurial background so I actually went to Seneca College, but I've been in and out of food for decades, you know, it's funny that it all kind of started I guess from my roots in Jamaica. My grandfather was a farmer and I used to go to farm with him, you know, as a kid. And you know, picking fruits and digging up produce and stuff like that, and then taking it to the local farmers market and reselling the crops. And then when I moved to Canada, one of my uncle's had a grocery store. So, I worked and did pretty much everything in a family grocery store, right from the, from, from being a stock boy to working at the cash counter. In truth, in fact, there was also a takeout restaurant there. So, I used to prepare all the root veggies and stuff you know, peeling onions and carrots, all that stuff for the food. And then later on, I actually became a butcher working behind the meat counter and prepped all the meats and stuff for the, for the kitchen as well.
Sylvain Charlebois 15:56
How did you learn how to become a butcher from produce to butchering to work with meat? It's a bit of a jump, eh?
Michael Burgess 16:04
Well, you know, you watch the guys that were already there. And like I said, as a kid growing up, you know, you're eager to learn stuff. So, it was something that you know, was a family business, you kind of get thrown into this helping out wherever you can lend a hand kind of thing. So, as I got older, and I could swing a cleaver, you know, I was, I was thrust into it, right. So,
Michael LeBlanc 16:25
Some aspire to greatness, some have greatness thrust into their hands with a meat cleaver, I guess.
Michael Burgess 16:29
Yeah, exactly.
Michael LeBlanc 16:31
It’s the story there. Now, let’s talk about Nerpy's product itself. Did you start, let's talk about did you start with a product, a couple of products. But first of all, tell us about the product and the origin of the name and, and take us through your product?
Michael Burgess 16:44
Yeah, so I started with one hot sauce. I wanted to make a Scotch bonnet pepper base, which kind of really goes back to my Jamaican roots, Scotch bonnet pepper, you really couldn't find a decent or good Scotch bonnet pepper sauce unless you went into a West Indian grocery store back in the day. So, you know, you weren't going into any of the major grocery chains and finding something like you got the mainstream sauces like a Franks and Tabasco, whatever. But so, I thought, you know, that represents that to me, it showed there was, there could have been an opportunity if I could get into a major grocery chain. So, I started my development with one product in mind with one hot sauce, which that's now out in the marketplace. It's my Gold Very Hot, which is a Scotch bonnet mango hot sauce and basically just did my R&D with it, you know, gave out lots of samples and blended up a couple of batches here and there. And, you know, people, I got people's feedback. And when people started offering to pay me for it, I thought, I realised, I was probably onto something and so,
Sylvain Charlebois 18:02
That’s a good sign typically.
Michael Burgess 18:05
Yeah. And so I, I, you know, pursued it with even more vigor and set up a company. I was kind of trying to decide what to call the company and what the company is about. And Nerpy’s is my nickname from a lot of, as most nicknames come about through, you know, through nonsense and, and, you know, friends, bestowing names upon, (crossover talk)
Sylvain Charlebois 18:18
We won't ask for specifics, Michael, don't worry. (Crossover talk) Children are actually listening to this podcast, you know,
Michael Burgess 18:24
Yeah, let's just say it's, you know, a lot of a lot of Jamaican rum was consumed the night of, the blessing of the name,
Sylvain Charlebois 18:27
Yeah, I’m sure.
Michael Burgess 18:29
Right. So, anyways, yeah, so, you know, my girlfriend said to me, why don't you just call it Nerpy’s. I'm like, she was like everybody calls you that and I'm like, not stupid. It's a stupid name. She said, Yeah, but you know, it's funny once you and then, once you hear it, you know, you're never gonna forget the name and then I said, All right, fine. Let's try it. So, we did and you know, I found I have a good friend of mine who's also a graphic designer who put together the artwork and you know and now you know the products we have several products and the name and the, and the brand is out there with my, with my face and image on in a caricature form on store shelves all across the GTA and a few other places.
Michael LeBlanc 19:16
So, now you have both sauces and marinades. right. So, how many products in total are in your line?
Michael Burgess 19:21
Yeah, So, right now we've got so yeah, the business has grown tremendously over the years. I actually have 15 products and I've been in the business now for 15 years. So, basically a product per year. We have two hot sauces and three seasonings, a barbecue sauce, and we have a hot pickled veg. We just got into Jamaica Blue Mountain coffee in 2021. So, now we're doing coffee as well. I also sell Scotch bonnet pepper seeds and we've got some of the seasonings. The three seasons are also available in bulk format for the Food Service sector.
Michael LeBlanc 20:00
Oh, okay, okay. And talk about where you get, I think you and I last saw each other, maybe I'm wrong at the launch of Arlene Dickinson's Food Innovation kitchen that she took over here in Toronto. Is that when you make your product or speak to that first for a few seconds.
Michael Burgess 20:15
Correct, that's where, that's where, we ran, each other, into each other last, so I'm not actually in that incubator, or in that facility anymore, but I used to be, I was one of, when it was originally called Food Starter. And so, I started there I think, in an effort to scale my production up, back in 2015. And so, it was quite instrumental in my growth, when Arlene took it over, I was invited back there as one of the, you know, sort of, I guess, founding members. Um, so yeah, so it was great to really kind of help me scale my, my, my, my process and, and, and increase the growth of my, of my products. And it was, you know, it was learn on the go and learn on the fly and make mistakes and I certainly did that in the beginning. I remember my first, my first booking, in there, I booked the kitchen for the facility for eight hours. And I didn't realise that I needed a lot more assistance. And I wasn't really at the scale to make it happen in eight hours. So, 15 plus hours later, when I was finished. Yeah, I quickly realised that I needed to find other ways to improve the process and shorten my production time. So, it certainly was a learning curve. (Crossover talk).
Michael LeBlanc 21:39
That's what that place is all about, right.
Michael Burgess 21:41
Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 21:42
Startup, learn to go from the kitchen table to the, to a modern food manufacturing facility, right?
Michael Burgess 21:46
Exactly. Exactly. And yeah, you know, it also kind of gave me a perspective as to why to continue with the business that there's a lot of opportunity out there for the project or in the products that I was making. From the standpoint of, you know, being you know, a clean label, all natural and no artificial ingredients and things like that. That really kind of adds value to the products that I was making and trying to put out in the marketplace.
Sylvain Charlebois 22:16
You're, you’re involved with some really competitive categories at the grocery store. I mean, there's lots of products, what makes your line unique? You know you're looking at sauces, marinades, coffee, even, I mean, you're involved with many categories where competitiveness is key. So, how do you make your products different? What's different? If you're, if you're, if you're meeting someone for the first time and you want to explain to them what's different with your products? What would you say?
Michael Burgess 22:51
Yeah, I touched a little bit just, just a while ago, what my products differ from a standpoint, from a flavour perspective. So, that's the number one thing is that the flavours that are present with all of my products are all unique, they're all different, within and amongst themselves. But even so out with, and against all the other brands out there like ours, you know, we, we bring a much different flavour, a much more robust flavour profile throughout all the products. They're just uniquely different. And, you know, you kind of have to taste the products to really kind of get it you know, (crossover talk).
Sylvain Charlebois 23:06
It’s hard to understand, yeah.
Michael Burgess 23:08
Sort of in its beauty and form. But also, the other thing is as well as that I you know, we present a clean ingredient deck. So, you know, all our products are gluten free, they're nut free, they're chemical free, there's no artificial ingredients or fillers. So, that's actually a really big thing, a lot of the, you know, in the, in our space, a lot of the competitors out there are using artificial preservatives and fillers and things like that. So, you know, that also is another differentiator.
Michael Burgess 23:55
And, you know, going back to when we started when we talked about the competitiveness of the space, as I mentioned earlier, there weren't really a lot of products like mine that you could find in the major grocery chains, you could find them in certain specialty stores. And as we, as a lot of the term is used, which I don't really necessarily like the term you know, the ethnic markets, but you really couldn't find them in the major grocery chains. So, what we've done is, is been able to, to bridge that gap. And so now you can find like a Scotch bonnet pepper sauce in, in, in the grocery chain, you can find an authentic chemical free jerk seasoning in, in, in the grocery store. You know, there's no sodium benzoate, no potassium sorbate, things like that. So, those are some of the differentiators and again, like I mentioned again, once you once you try the products, (crossover talk).
Sylvain Charlebois 25:04
You’re hooked.
Michael Burgess 25:05
Once we excite your taste buds it's all over, your taste buds, it's all over.
Sylvain Charlebois 25:10
What's. Describe to us what your typical customer looks like, I mean, you're, you're into spicy condiments, sauces. And we all know Canadians aren't necessarily big fans of spicy stuff, but you're, you're getting some traction, you're getting more people to like your product. How do you, how do you describe your typical customer?
Michael Burgess 25:30
That dynamic, you mentioned, has actually changed quite a bit over the years. And when I got into the, yeah, when I got into the business, I saw that as an opportunity that the Canadian market, you know, with our growing and diverse communities now are, are, are wanting to try spicier foods, different foods, they want a little bit more flavour in the foods that they're reading now. So, my ideal candidate for my products is basically anybody who's a foodie, anybody who wants to try something that has a little bit more flavour, that's not just your bland run of the mill food, or, you know, so it can be anybody who's like, you know, and you see, I see it a lot of times when I go and I do events, and they see young kids that come up in here, let me try your hot sauce, because they've been introduced a hot sauce to their parents or their or their other friends or so on or, or some of their friends that they're, you know, from other non-Canadian households that have introduced them to some spice your food. So, you know, my customers are anybody that enjoys food, basically. So, whether you're a teenager to a senior, at the end of the day, if you're, if you're, if you like, nice, good, healthy, clean eating foods that have a little bit of, a little bit of flavour, more flavour to it,
Sylvain Charlebois 26:47
Right.
Michael Burgess 26:48
And maybe even a little bit more spicy, then, you know, you're, you're my client, you're my customer.
Sylvain Charlebois 26:51
Now, you, you sound like a guy with a lot of ideas, lots of ideas. How do you get your inspiration? How do you innovate? How, like, how do you come up with new product ideas? And yeah, so (inaudible) innovation is a, is a, is a process that really changes from one company to another, what's your process?
Michael Burgess 27:12
Yeah, well, you know, as, as we've developed the product line over the years, you know, as I said, we're, you know, we're 15 products in now and with I have four more, that are pretty much developed already in terms of recipes, and we just haven't released them market yet. But a lot of it comes from just going out and meeting with the public and, and, and getting their feedback. You know, when I'm out at a trade show or an event, and someone comes up and tells me how much I love the product, it's just that's an inspiration to keep going into. And to come up with something new. And a lot of times, people come up and say like, hey, do you have this? Or do you have that? And I remember years ago, even before we got into the coffee business, for example, you know, on my banner, it says authentic Jamaican flavours. They would ask, well, do you have coffee? Do you have Jamaican Blue Mountain coffee? And I said No, not yet. You know, it kinda was just a must, a must do kind of thing, right? Go look about getting the Jamaican Blue Mountain coffee. So, things like that came, have come about through, you know, feedback from customers.
Michael Burgess 28;58
Same thing before we did jerk seasoning. You know, customers would ask about it. Like, no, not yet, But maybe. You know, initially I didn't want to do it, because I had a cousin who was doing a jerk seasoning and I, I didn't really want to step on his toes and it you know, but eventually I did develop my own product and, and the same has come up with a lot of the other products that have developed, it's just through taking the time doing some research, figuring out whether or not the market is viable for that particular product. And, and then doing some research on it, creating the recipes and putting them out there, doing some testing in the marketplace and events. And if the feedback is great, then we then we, you know, move forward, (crossover talk).
Michael LeBlanc 28:57
The next step. Yeah, yeah. Let's, let's, let's turn our minds to the other side of the business, the trade part of the business. Let's talk about that for a while. So, you know, going back, we've talked on this interview about on the one hand a competitive category, but on the other hand, a category that was ripe for innovation right there wasn't anything quite like your product. So, talk about your experiences with the grocers and getting out of and distributed to the major grocers and, and do you take their feedback as well? Just talk about the trade part of your business a little bit.
Michael Burgess 29:27
Yeah, so um, you know, when I first went out to say, okay, let me see if I can get my product on, on a store shelf, a lot of it. My first sort of jump over to that platform was with, you know, smaller independent specialty stores I had, I think my first store was a hot sauce specific store out in Oshawa. So, you know, I went out and, and, and pitched my product to the owner and, and they took me on board and you know, same with as I kind of charted that that course, you know, I took some feedback from, from the store owners in terms of price points and what they were looking for with margins and things like that. So, it just kind of helped to refine,
Michael LeBlanc 30:06
Right, right.
Michael Burgess 30:07
The steps to the next level. And then once I, once I had my product scaled, I was able to, to I got an opportunity to present those products to Farm Boy initially, and they were looking as they were expanding into the GTA here looking for local suppliers and very much fortunate to have been at Food Starter at that time, they had spoken with them and I got an opportunity to,
Michael LeBlanc 30:36
Sure, Sure.
Michael Burgess 30:38
Be there. The same happened with Metro. And I was able to pitch my products to Metro. I had a meeting with the buyers in the category at the time, and they tried the products and, and they were impressed. And there was actually a buyer there who was a fan of hot sauce. So, she really enjoyed the products. One of the buyers wasn't so much a spicy fan. So, it was good to have, (crossover talk),
Michael LeBlanc 31:12
They had to excuse themselves from the meeting for a few seconds. (Crossover talk).
Michael Burgess 31:18
There were a couple items that, yeah, that were a little too hot for her. But fortunately, there was someone else that was, that was a fan and, (crossover talk).
Sylvain Charlebois 31:26
Michael, when you say hot, like how hot are your products really?
Michael Burgess 31:33
Yeah, I mean, so you know, that is such a subjective term, right? Because, you know, the three of us could be sitting in a room with all different palettes and different exposures to different heat levels. So, I’ll put it to you this way: the Scotch bonnet pepper used to be ranked one of the hottest peppers out there. But now it's been surpassed by things like the ghost pepper, the scorpion peppers, even the habaneros was a little bit hotter than the Scotch bonnet. And then you have really extreme ones like the Carolina Reaper, and there's one out there now called Pepper X. And these are ranked like 2 million. And you know, a million Scoville units over Scotch bonnet is 350,000 to a half a mil. So, again, if you're used to something like a Tabasco or Frank's we’re significantly hotter, right.
Michael LeBlanc 31:52
Right, right.
Michael Burgess 31:53
But if you are having something like a ghost pepper or Carolina Reaper, you know, we're a little bit milder. But the nice thing about the Scotch bonnet pepper is that it really delivers a really, really nice flavour profile, it's got some fruity notes to it, that if you cut into it, when it's in its raw form, it's got a really nice aroma. You know, back home, we even just put the Scotch bonnet pepper in things like rice and soup just to flavour the pot. You know, Michael, you did that with your, in one of your videos with the habanero, and seasoned up some rice with it. And it may have gotten, you may have gotten a little bit carried away with it. Or maybe the pepper broke in that, for whatever my recollection of the podcast (crossover talk).
Michael LeBlanc 33:00
It was a little hot. But I can tell you and I'll tell the listeners, you know, I've filmed a couple of episodes using your product. And it's just fantastic. I mean, the flavour profile is just unique. And it's just fantastic. Last quick question and then I'll pass the mic to Sylvain. Are you finding grocers on the whole, you, named a few major ones? Are they more willing to take chances with small vendors like yourself these days? Or how are you finding that experience on a day-to-day basis, if you can, (crossover talk).
Michael Burgess 33:26
You know, I really do tip my hat to Metro, they've been a really solid partner for a lot of local small business entrepreneurs in the food space like, like me, and they really have championed, and I think they're, there, they are, they are really putting the money where their mouth is in terms of you know, local support. Sobeys is doing something as well like that and so is Loblaw. I think Metro really has kind of set the bar for them to follow. However, Metro, I mean, you know, Metro puts together a full Pavilion of vendors at the Royal Winter Fair, which is, you know, one of the largest fairs in Toronto every winter. And we're all there and this is, this is something that they, they sponsor they put it on. And you know, all the dignitaries in the city come for opening day and get to meet with us, you know, the mayor, the. the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Affairs, and so it's a great program that Metro has really truly championed, you know, I encourage the rest of the other grocery retailers to really kind of get on board and support local entrepreneurs and local businesses like ours, because we need that to stimulate the growth in our economy. You know, we've for many years been too dependent on products coming out of the US and, and, and China and other places. And we have local producers here that are making great products, if not better quality products than some of these products that were that you know are being you know, fed to us through some of the major distributors here and we need to distribute, distributors as well to, to pick up some of these products like ours, and really, you know, be a platform for us to, to expand across the country.
Sylvain Charlebois 35:10
So, when you look at the future, you know, over the next five years, what's, what's on your path right now? What do you see?
Michael Burgess 35:19
So, the path is to continue the growth on the wholesale side with, you know, the, the, the grocery chains, I’ve in dialogue right now with Loblaw, for example to, to roll out with, with them, and hopefully, we can pick up, you know, a couple other retailers, you know, Longo’s and you know, some of the other ones that are out there, but also to the online space has been a something that we saw really kind of take a huge growth trajectory during the, you know, the lockdown, and I think the online side of the business will continue to grow. Even though we've seen some, some contraction with that, lately now that things are opening up again, and people are out in the marketplace going in and buying stuff.
Michael Burgess 35:35
And I think also too, on the food service side, you know, you know, that really kind of took a big hit during the lockdown as well. And so, we were really trying to expand into that space and it, it, it had a huge contraction. And now that we're, things are opened up again, you know, we're going to continue to, to, to push forward with that, there's still some challenges, challenges on the supply chain side with respect to packaging. But again, once we get over that hump, we'll continue to plug on and, and chart a direction with companies in the food service space, like, you know, like GFS or or Flanagan's and Cisco and some of those guys and see if we can get some leverage there.
Michael Burgess 36:00
And then, like I said, just continue to push the online piece, you know, I'm trying to see if I can get on to, you know, the big fish, Amazon, and we'll see how that, how that rolls out, it's a little bit challenging, I've dabbled a little bit onto it, and it's, it’s challenging, but once we get it ironed out, then that will be the other direction that we head in to. And there's a lot of other, you know, online spaces that that are picking up product now to offer, you know, consumers that door-to-door, you know, delivery without them having to go to, you know, a retailer to pick up product,
Sylvain Charlebois 37:04
Right.
Michael Burgess 37:05
But I think that will continue, especially with the younger generation or, you know, the online shopping piece, I think is going to be a great avenue for us to for, for, for growth, both Canada wide and, and into the US and potentially overseas.
Sylvain Charlebois 37:39
That's great. Michael, listen, I on behalf of myself and Michael, my co-host, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to join us today on our podcast. I know you're really busy. And I mean, it's great. Congratulations on your success. And, and we hope to see you again at some point at some show. I'm sure you're bringing a lot of excitement to the food industry. So, thank you so much for doing that.
Michael Burgess 38:05
Gentleman. Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure. Again, doing my first podcast, I feel you know, privileged and honoured to be, (crossover talk).
Sylvain Charlebois 38:13
The first of many.
Michael Burgess 38:15
Yes, hopefully.
Michael LeBlanc 38:16
The floodgates are opened, (crossover talk).
Michael Burgess 38:21
There you go. There you go. So, thanks again. And you know, it's really been a pleasure. Yes, I think, well I know, Michael and I, you and I will see each other pretty soon. Our paths seem to be intertwining even more. So, so Sylvain, I hope to run to you as well soon.
Sylvain Charlebois 38:36
Absolutely. Take care.
Michael Burgess 38:38
Great. Thanks, gentlemen.
Michael LeBlanc 38:40
Let's move on. Last time I saw you it wasn't in person, but you were on a webinar with our friends from Cattle. And you were talking about a bunch of data that we saw that they came up with. What was your assessment? I think it, they, we were, they did a great job of looking at what consumers are actually buying in terms of their, their behaviour, their behaviours in an inflationary period. Any, any thoughts on that? Any kind of quick notes from that? It was a great webinar. So, I’m kind of, it’s an unfair question because I'm having you summarise a half or you know, an hour long webinar, but in a couple of lines, what, what was the kind of keynotes from it?
Sylvain Charlebois 39:13
Well, I didn't expect like almost 300 people to show up. But it was a great seminar with Colleen. It was our third I believe together. So, we kind of have, we kind of know each other very well. And, but yeah, I mean, basically what was really nice is that we were able to compare to surveys about food inflation, how people are coping with food inflation. And we ran a survey last year and then this year and basically compared, compared notes. And so what we realised, what we, the biggest, take home, was a lot of people think that some products have actually gone up significantly and they haven't, like meat for example. People think meat is way more expensive, but that's the one category where prices have actually gone up the least of all categories in the last 12 months. But what we noticed also is that people aren't buying, they're not buying meat as much, but they're going towards dairy and vegetables and those categories are more expensive. So,
Michael LeBlanc 40:15
Interesting, interesting. So, it's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy,
Sylvain Charlebois 40:18
Exactly. (Crossover talk).
Michael LeBlanc 40:19
It’s costing me more to shop but I am buying more expensive items.
Sylvain Charlebois 40:21
The other takeaway, of course, is that the younger generations are clearly more impacted by, by, by food inflation than, than, than boomers Of course. Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 40:32
So, I saw on the news this headline, “Egg Farmers cry foul over labels on plant-based alternatives”. So, I guess it's interesting I bring it up just because we've had Josh Tetrick from, from Eat just and his,
Sylvain Charlebois 40:43
Yes.
Michael LeBlanc 40:44
His plant-based eggs. Now the farmers are saying, hey, I'm calling foul. I'm going to use it again saying listen, you can't describe them as eggs, they're there and we saw this as well when we've seen it over with dairy and we've seen it over with, with meat as well. So, I guess the egg farmers are saying hey, listen, you can't call them eggs. They're not eggs. There's something else and I guess, I guess that's fair, right? I mean, the clear labelling. Do you have any thoughts on that?
Sylvain Charlebois 41:07
Well, laws in the US are much looser. In Canada we have marketing boards, obviously for, for eggs, poultry, and dairy. So, they have, I'd say more power when it comes to labels. But they've, they’ve been, they’re, we've seen some wins in Canada with dairy for example, with cheese, like plant-based cheese can be called cheese now. I think the ruling is now three years old. So, there's, there's some loosening up right now. And when I say to farmers when I meet them, I say Listen, don't get upset by the semantics, don't get upset by the language, focus on what you do best and you provide a natural product, a good product that people actually enjoy. And that's the trick here. I mean, the egg to me is the best natural product, a product Canadian farmers actually make as far as I'm concerned. It's a complete product. It's a standalone product. And so you got to be proud of that as much as possible. Same for chicken, same for dairy as well.
Michael LeBlanc 42:08
So, don't fight the small, don't fight the small battles. Don't, you know, (crossover talk).
Sylvain Charlebois 42:11
Yeah, exactly. But they’ve, they've been doing that forever because they always felt that there was a threat, but I mean, in the next few years with, with, with cellular agriculture and everything else that's happening, it's going to be tougher and tougher for them to compete.
Michael LeBlanc 42:25
I want to, a last couple of things. I wanted to call out this great article. I was reading in the New York Times from the “From the Pandemic Puppy to the Inflation Chicken”. Did you see this article that People are buying chickens for their backyards to make eggs,
Sylvain Charlebois 42:34
I know.
Michael LeBlanc 42:35
I think people forget that. I think people forget we like the taste of chicken but so do every other predator in the world like the taste. So, it ain't easy to raise chickens, man. What do you, (crossover talk). What do you think of this?
Sylvain Charlebois 42:51
And yeah, it's great. It's great for city dwellers. But now with the Avian flu and everything that's going on right now, with biosecurity. It's a nightmare for the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, let's face it. But yeah, absolutely. People want to save money. And they want to do something. So, they're buying chickens. Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 43:20
Interesting.
Sylvain Charlebois 43:21
We actually, we believe that about 3% of the population in Canada owns a farm animal of some sort.
Michael LeBlanc 43:24
Oh, really, 3% (crossover talk).
Sylvain Charlebois 43:27
And chicken is the most popular one. Yep.
Michael LeBlanc 43:24
I want to leave off with a great note, our friends from BetterCart Analytics just got a bit of funding from the CFIN. So, we should just shout out congratulations to them.
Sylvain Charlebois 43:35
Yes.
Michael LeBlanc 43:36
(Crossover talk) some funding. Yeah, bravo. Congratulations. What did they get? Over $150,000 to do the great work they’ve been doing. So, congratulations.
Sylvain Charlebois 43:44
It's a great company. Yep.
Michael LeBlanc 43:45
To our friends at BetterCart Analytics in Saskatchewan, right? Very good.
Sylvain Charlebois 43:46
Yes, and we had Melanie Morrison the CEO on I think it was last year, the year before. So, congratulations to Melanie and her team.
Michael LeBlanc 43:54
Yeah, I'll put a link to that episode in the show notes. It’s a great episode learning about what they do and the great data that they, that they can, that they're generating. So, it's great to see support going into them. All right, well, listen, let's leave it there another busy week. But I'm thinking, I’m feeling like I'm gonna say that at the end of every podcast, so maybe I'll say yes. Because it's true. Thank you all for listening. And you want to say that Sylvain, you and I will be together at SIAL the upcoming Food Innovation show,
Sylvain Charlebois 44:24
Yes.
Michael LeBlanc 44:25
It happens in Toronto. So, we’ll, we'll put a link in the show notes so people can go, we'll be podcasting live from there, and by all means, head to the show.
And for now. I'm Michael LeBlanc, Consumer Growth Consultant, keynote speaker, podcaster and you are?
Sylvain Charlebois 44:35
And I’m Sylvain Charlebois, The Food Professor joining Mr. Hollywood. Yes, Mr. Show Business.
Michael LeBlanc 44:41
That's right. (Inaudible) Hollywood Sylvain. But I’m Hollywood Michael today. So, there you go.
Sylvain Charlebois 44:44
That's right. That's right.
Michael LeBlanc 44:48
All right Sylvain. Safe travels and talk to you next week.
Sylvain Charlebois 44:51
All right. Take care.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
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