We're back for our 5th season as one of Canada's top independent management podcasts after a summer break from live shows with a fast-paced review of all the big stories in the Canadian food industry that happened since we were last together live on the mic. It was an action-packed summer!! Helping us kick off our season premiere with style is the one and only Tony Chapman, serial entrepreneur, marketing visionary, keynote speaker, and host of the great Chatter That Matter #podcast!
We're back for our 5th season as one of Canada's top independent management podcasts after a summer break from live shows with a fast-paced review of all the big stories in the Canadian food industry that happened since we were last together live on the mic in June. It was an action-packed summer!!
Helping us kick off our season premiere with style is the one and only Tony Chapman, serial entrepreneur, marketing visionary, keynote speaker, and host of the great Chatter That Matter #podcast! Tony brings his powerful insights to the grocery sector, sharing his unique perspective on the industry's future. And in a thought-provoking twist, we ask Tony what he would do if he were handed the keys to a grocery empire.
About Tony
Tony Chapman is a trailblazing force in the marketing and content world, a three-time Hall of Fame inductee who built two globally acclaimed agencies and an innovative research firm from the ground up. Today, Tony is the host of the hit podcast Chatter That Matters, a trusted and dynamic media commentator, and a sought-after speaker.
Chatter That Matters, hosted by Tony, is a podcast about people who overcome circumstances to chase their dreams and change the world for the better. His guests include Olympians, Emmy, Grammy, and Oscar nominees, NY Times Best Sellers, thought leaders, change makers, and stories of people you've never heard of, but whose journeys will inspire.
Download Chatter that Matters wherever you get your podcasts, or you can listen here: https://chatterthatmatters.libsyn.com/
Twitter: @TonyChapman - https://twitter.com/tonychapman
Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tonychapmanreactions/
IG https://www.instagram.com/chatterthatmatters/
FB. https://www.facebook.com/tonychapmancanada/
Michael LeBlanc 00:05
Welcome to the Food Professor podcast, presented by Caddle, season 5, our debut episode of the brand new season. I'm Michael LeBlanc.
Sylvain Charlebois 00:13
And I'm the Food Professor, Sylvain Charlebois.
Michael LeBlanc 00:17
Our very special guest this week is someone I've known for close to 20 years. He's a Canadian Marketing visionary and entrepreneur, media personality, friend of grocers and food brands alike. Stage master, fellow, leading independent Canadian podcaster with his “Chatter That Matters” pod, you know him, you love him. Tony Chapman.
Sylvain Charlebois 00:36
Oh yeah. Tony Chapman, it's been-, we've-, we should have had him a long time ago. I've actually, I think I've known him for 20 years as well and-, and frankly, he's just dynamite. He's smart, he's intriguing, he-, he provokes thought the way I like it. I just love-, whenever I actually listen to him-, I would listen to him all day, to be honest. So, I'm looking forward to our chat.
Michael LeBlanc 01:03
And we'll be seeing-, we'll be seeing him in person coming up at the Coffee Association of Canada's conference coming up later in the year. We'll be back-, you'll be back on the stage, we'll be podcasting that conference again.
Sylvain Charlebois 01:15
Yeah, in fact, actually, Tony invited me to-, to a coffee chat at the coffee conference in front of people and I think it's going to be a lot of fun, I really enjoy adlib. I enjoy conversations, and because especially with him, I mean, he's just-, he's going to be giving me some content. I'm going to give some content to him. It's going to be really great.
Michael LeBlanc 01:40
It's great. Well, you're both so good on your-, on your feet, so to speak, you're both-, both entertaining and informative. So, I think that would be a great session. So, we'll get to our interview with Tony coming up a little later on the pod. How was your summer?
Sylvain Charlebois 01:53
Busy. Actually, to be honest, I was expecting to take a couple of weeks off. I think I took a couple of days off.
Michael LeBlanc 02:02
I saw a lot of you on-, on the media. I wasn't expecting to see you so much.
Sylvain Charlebois 02:06
Yeah, me neither, to be honest, it got busy. And of course, I was in Montreal, at the cottage, and so basically, spent a lot of time in Montreal, meaning some-, catching up on-, on-, on some-, some acquaintance that I do have, businesses, visited companies, met some colleagues over at McGill, went to Laval in Quebec as well. So, yeah, it was very busy. How was your summer?
Michael LeBlanc 02:32
Summer was good. I did a bit of-, did a bit of traveling for business. I was in Vegas.
Sylvain Charlebois 02:35
You were cooking a lot, I think.
Michael LeBlanc 02:37
A lot of episodes, a lot of pod episodes, not pod episodes, but the barbecue show's really taken off, which is, of course, a lot of fun. I was in Vegas, Barcelona, a couple places, I think Barcelona was there before we-, we wrapped up season four. I was there for work, 40 degrees, but it's a dry heat, 41 degrees when I was there.
Sylvain Charlebois 02:59
Dry heat, 40 degrees.
Michael LeBlanc 03:00
Dry heat. So that was, that was a pile of fun and now I've got-, I'm finishing the summer, if listeners can kind of pick it up, I've got a bit of a nasal, I've got a bit of a cold, fortunately, not covid and of course, I'm still got these stupid things that I still have to test to make sure I don't have covid because I take care of my mom, but anyway, so if the listeners detect a bit of weirdness in my voice it's a-
Sylvain Charlebois 03:22
You've got a sexy voice.
Michael LeBlanc 03:24
Well, thank you very much. We, as the pod, had an excellent summer. We had an excellent response to our summer bonus series of SIAL podcasts episodes.
Sylvain Charlebois 03:32
Oh yeah, lots of reactions.
Michael LeBlanc 03:34
Thank you everybody for listening, we've actually got a few more interviews that we didn't fit into the summer, so we're gonna weave those into the fall and of course, Colleen Martin returns as a regular guest with proprietary research from Caddle.
Sylvain Charlebois 03:46
Colleen.
Michael LeBlanc 03:47
Commissioned by us just for you the listeners, now coming later in September. We were super curious, both of us, about what consumers were thinking about grocery e-commerce because we heard lots of news. I think it was Empire, Sobeys and [inaudible] saying, hey, we're gonna take a step back. We're gonna slow our roll, We're a little disappointed. I think there's more. it's interesting because it really hasn't caught on with consumers on both sides of the border, by the way, and-, and I think there's more to the story than it's just more expensive, because I just think that and so we're going to be presenting some results.
Michael LeBlanc 04:22
Well, and I want to talk about Loblaws a little later in the show, because they're testing something else. I really like the ideas, and I've been thinking about it a lot, and we've been talking about a lot on my other pod, remarkable retail about, you know, our latest episode was called 'Fail Better', and it was all about encouraging retailers, grocers, whoever, to pilot, test, fail, fail better the next time. Just-, just try new stuff. Don't like-, just try, try, try all this stuff. So, it's great to hear and we've got another-
Sylvain Charlebois 04:22
That's a great question and by the way, kudos to you, my friend, because many months ago, you came up with the idea of surveying Canadians on cashiers standing or sitting and I had the pleasure this summer to talk with Per Bank, the CEO of Loblaw, and he, he was the one that actually told me that Loblaw ran a pilot. I actually didn't even talk about the survey we did. He just brought it up because he saw-, he saw my column, and he heard us on our-, on our podcast, talking about it and so he did, basically, tell me. He didn't tell me that he ran the pilot because of us, just so, you know, for the record, but he did basically say that it kind of influenced their way of thinking. So the pilot is done, and so they're just looking at the issue right now as a company. So, yeah, I mean, these-, these surveys are about getting people to think differently, getting companies to think differently about the business.
Sylvain Charlebois 05:51
Oh, Loblaw is trying, I can tell you. I mean, I can think of three, four things they've announced recently, and they're, they're trying. Sometimes they actually make a big deal of it and sometimes they don't like the cashier thing.
Michael LeBlanc 06:02
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think-, I think there's a lot of things they try underneath the covers, so to speak, like a new robot in a warehouse.
Sylvain Charlebois 06:08
Oh, yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 06:09
But these, they got some bigger ideas that they're trying, which is pretty, pretty fun to talk about. Now we're going to spend the rest of our time together. It's kind of like what happened when we were away, kind of episode, because there's a-, you know, it wasn't a quiet summer, like, a lot of stuff happened, right?
Sylvain Charlebois 06:23
That's the thing and I was hoping for a quiet summer, but it didn't happen.
Michael LeBlanc 06:28
Yeah, it was. It was not a quiet summer. So, let's start rattling a few of those off before we get to our interview with Tony, and then we'll wrap up the show after that. So, I want to start with something that happened, literally, the week after we wrapped season four, which was all the grocer's finally signing the code of conduct. Now, you-, you struck both a positive note and I don't know if I'd call it a cautionary note, but you're like, you know, this is good. Obviously, you've been calling for this for literally years. We now have all the major five signing on, I just wanted to, you know, with a few months of soak time, so to speak. How are you feeling about the code and tell the people what the next steps are, from your understanding as well.
Sylvain Charlebois 07:08
Well, the easy part's done.
Michael LeBlanc 07:14
Well, don't tell Deanne and Michael that the easy part’s done.
Michael LeBlanc 07:16
And in some ways, much more interesting. I mean, a lot of negotiations happen behind the scenes. So now we'll get to see some, okay, how's this actually going to work, and what are the mechanisms and so we'll, we'll have lots of stuff to talk about, no doubt, as we kind of move forward. It certainly was not quiet south of the border, my goodness, from an assassination attempt to a brand-new candidate, Biden pushed aside Kamala Harris now she's got some Canadian experience and roots, as does her VP, you know, from, from the great state of Minnesota. What do you think about this development? Good, bad or indifferent for-, for Canada, we all-, we already see they're picking up some familiar notes about doing something about grocery prices. So the strike is a familiar note, we've heard that narrative before, but what's your overall sense of-, of things?
Sylvain Charlebois 07:16
I I know. Well, I mean, I think they probably would agree with this. I mean, it was, I mean, just to get people to endorse the code is one thing that to get everyone to work together in the confines of a code of conduct is going to be, I think, something else, and you need leadership. It's going to be implemented in 2025. I'm looking forward to seeing how things go. I'm actually hopeful and optimist-, optimistic that it will work out. We need something. We need to try this to make things better for our manufacturers and grocers, to be honest, and independent grocers also, so I was really, really thrilled. I think it's a big win and yeah, so I look forward to-, to see how things go with-, with the implementation phase, which is, in my view, going to be much more difficult.
Sylvain Charlebois 08:56
Well, I mean, I-, it’s to me, Democrats or Republicans. They're both, they both can be a pain for Canada, as far as-, a lot of people think, well, if it's Trump, it's going to be worse. I don't know, to be honest, from a trades perspective, but what I can tell you is that certainly, Democrats have made it quite clear that they're going to be going after monopolies and oligopolies, they're going to make-, they're going to make food affordability, or affordability a key issue and I have to throw in the-, the announcement from Couche-Tard that we learned last week that they were trying to buy 7-Eleven and a lot of people don't know this but, but Couche-Tard's market cap is $25 billion more than 7-Eleven, so this can happen, financially it can happen. Couche-Tard can buy the number one convenience store operator in the world. There's no doubt in my mind.
Michael LeBlanc 09:49
Which, which is, which is a transaction in Japan, right? So, what's the context in the US?
Sylvain Charlebois 09:53
Just wait for it. Just wait for it. So, it's, it is in Japan and of course, it may actually take some time, but I actually do think that Couche-Tard knows what it's doing. It's actually doing the right thing. It's-, it's a friendly offer to Japan, a very public one as well. So they're in for a few months of negotiations with the Japanese, and I think that the Japanese would be inclined to accept if all conditions are-, are met for for them in particular, but I think the biggest problem is the United States and what's going on right now with the Democrats and this debate around affordability because, well, 7-Eleven operates in 19 countries, mainly in the United States of America, and so right now, you know what's going on with Kroger and Albertsons. I mean, it's been ugly since October 2023.
Sylvain Charlebois 10:44
Exactly, exactly, and so, and they're still at it. My guess is that if Couche-Tard buys successfully, gets an offer and-, and it is accepted. I think the biggest challenge is going to be regulators in the United States due to the political tone created by the campaign. So, beyond everything, like for, for the rest, I think it's just noise, to be honest, but that, to me, is going to be a big, big concern, looking at how the Americans are dealing with competition and in Canada, it's still very soft. You know, the Competition Bureau is still looking at things, studying things, and, I mean, the FTC is actually suing Kroger, for goodness’ sake, suing, would you see the Competition Bureau suing Loblaw here.
Michael LeBlanc 10:44
The government-, that's another thing I was going to talk about. The guy the government has stepped in and filed suits against the merger, right?
Michael LeBlanc 11:40
No, no, it's hard-, it's hard to imagine now, sticking with the US. I just, I want to pick up on an article I just read from David, from a Canadian who's actually worked, work for the Republicans and written, actually a great book about, about Trump, and he talked about the cattle business and the options for the Democrats and he just said, Listen, there's a lot of stuff that goes on way out of anybody's control, from fires to drought to whatever. He said, maybe, maybe they should subsidize, maybe there's too much consolidation around the production of and that of beef, and maybe they should subsidize somebody to get in the game. Now you and I were talking off mic, and you said you've done some research on that, and there wasn't a lot there.
Sylvain Charlebois 12:24
In Ontario with small abattoirs and so actually, we were-, we were asked to, when I was in Guelph, we were asked by [inaudible] to look into why so many small abattoirs were closing down in Ontario and it's a problem in Canada as much as it is in the US, and that's why there's so much consolidation. What we did learn, and it's actually a published study, it's on Google Scholar, if you want to look at it, I think it was published in 2015. The outcome of the study was pretty simple. Managing abattoirs is hard, and you need competent people who understand markets, who understand how to deal with grocers, and you also need product to harvest and sometimes grocers, or producers, cattle producers, will go to the best bidder, basically and if Americans actually come into the auction with more money, you're out of luck. You don't have anything to slaughter and so there's that food safety regulations are extremely expensive by the end of the day, it's management and strategy, and small abattoirs tend to really fail in that regard. So, the reason why many abattoirs close in Ontario is because many of them told us, oh, it's because there's too much, too much regulation.
Michael LeBlanc 13:43
Let's talk about, let's move along, and before we get to Tony, let's talk about the Loblaws, we mentioned it before their-, their pilot, and what, let's call it the No-Frills pilot. I think you wrote about; I think it's in three cities in Ontario, and it's basically-
Sylvain Charlebois 13:58
The closest one would be-, to you, would be, St Catherine's, right?
Michael LeBlanc 14:01
Okay. St. Catherine's, yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois 14:03
St, St. Catherine's, Windsor, and Brockville.
Michael LeBlanc 14:06
And Brockville, okay, that's interesting. So, I had a couple of questions for you. One is, what I found interesting about the pilot, and I'm sure you did too, was no refrigeration. I guess the idea was, we-, it's expensive to have refrigerators in stores, and the product that, you know, refrigerated products. So, let's take that out. I guess that's the assumption of two things. One, it must be an assumption that people will shop multiple places during the week because they're not going to get their dairy or frozen and B, who have they taken this market share from? They claim, I think they claim in the press release, that they would get like, 20% less prices, but of course, you're not going to fill your basket. You're gonna have to go somewhere else. What do you make of all this?
Sylvain Charlebois 14:47
I'm not sure I would buy into the 20% to be honest, because a lot of variables can-, can-, can-
Michael LeBlanc 14:52
That is the number. They said, though, right?
Sylvain Charlebois 14:54
That's the number. Yeah, that's the number. It's funny, because that day, the-, on the eve of the announcement, I get a phone call from Loblaw asking me if I would want to talk to Per Bank that night. So, we had a chat about this Per Bank and I, about the launch before it was announced. Oh, interesting and the first thing he said was really interesting. He said, we are no longer afraid to cannibalize ourselves.
Michael LeBlanc 15:23
Obviously, because obviously, cause they'd be in these towns, they'd be in St. Catherine's, they'd be in Brockville, they'd be in all these places.
Sylvain Charlebois 15:28
And this is really, I think, interesting news for every single Canadian, because if you're starting to see grocers not worry and you know-, you're in retail, you're-, you're the king of retail, Michael, you know that-, that grocers are very territorial. You're on that side of the track. I'm on this side of the track. I mean, it's-, it's-, that's how it's been, right? It's very traditional, but now I think with this call Loblaw, is challenging all of these territorial paradigms that have actually supported the industry for a very long time, which could actually make the industry more competitive domestically, really, when you think about it, if they actually roll out that strategy, and I don't think they'll wait a year, they're going to wait six months, and then they'll actually deploy and that model is really easy to deploy. You can actually cover many cities very quickly. So that bit was really the big news item out of that call.
Michael LeBlanc 16:24
Where do you think they-, I mean, they don't want to just cannibalize themselves. Who do you think they're taking that, I mean, they're gonna try and take market share from somebody. Is it-, is it the dollar stores?
Sylvain Charlebois 16:32
Strategically, the aim is clearly, clearly Dollarama and Giant Tiger.
Michael LeBlanc 16:37
Oh, interesting, okay.
Sylvain Charlebois 16:38
And what do you think?
Michael LeBlanc 16:40
Yeah, I mean, as I thought about A, you're going to cannibalize yourself, and B, who in-, who in those markets is in that space? I mean, Walmart, I guess some Walmart’s have no refrigeration in the smaller towns, but a lot of them are full grocers, now, right? So anyway, super interesting.
Sylvain Charlebois 16:56
There'll be some freezers, but again, but again, actually, you can actually manage that store with very few FTEs, and it's 1300 products, really, and most of them will be private label, and Loblaw controls their-, controls their private label supply chain. So, it's-, it's actually, you know what, it's a great pilot. Whether or not it's going to work, we'll see they're aiming at small towns. So don't expect one in Mississauga, to be honest, they're aiming at-, at markets where real estate costs are very low, and there are gaps within rural Canada, many, many gaps and so I think and I did ask Per Bank why Brockville, St. Catharine’s and Windsor, and his answer was, well, it was really random. We just picked places we could actually find real estate for a while and test-, and test a model, that's basically and it's a good approach.
Michael LeBlanc 17:52
Speaking of approaches, you just talked about it a little bit. I was reading this, it was on BNN today, this wooly headed academic talking about private labels, and that it was really almost covertly a strategy by grocers to push brands out of the store and then raise the prices of the private label. Is there any-, is there any basis in fact, in that it sounds, it doesn't sound at all to me, like what the strategy for private label is, but where is that coming from.
Sylvain Charlebois 18:23
II don't know what's going on with the Globe and Mail, to be honest. I-, they-, they're-, they're public, like with journalists, it's fine. I mean, the coverage is, the coverage. Some of the investigation they-, they're leading is great, but with op eds, their-, their selection process is really, really odd.
Michael LeBlanc 18:41
There was a point in there today about nationalizing the railway like that worked in the 70s. We denationalized it.
Sylvain Charlebois 18:47
And, and in the op ed doesn't even mention that-, that we actually had a nationalized railway system before.
Michael LeBlanc 18:52
And, and it was a shit show, right? It was not good. It was not good, exactly. I mean, it worked. It worked in the 1800s when we needed to build the railroad, and then it didn't work for like, 100 years, and now we-
Sylvain Charlebois 19:02
Yeah, because-, because you don't need 100 vice presidents. I mean, you create top heavy organizations, and they become inefficient. That's basically how crown-, crowns work in Canada, do you remember crown corporations?
Michael LeBlanc 19:14
Yeah, I mean, Air Canada, right? Air Canada used to be a Crown Corporation as well. It's kind of beyond the memory, and we got a better airline now, though they might be striking as well on the 17th.
Sylvain Charlebois 19:23
But strikes aren't necessarily a bad thing. I mean, it's, yeah, there are always going to be some. If I-, if you remember correctly-, I mean, I remember when CN was public, when CN was actually owned by the government, there were labor disputes. There were labor disputes and so, so I think CN is in better shape. I mean, it's-, it's making a lot of money. CP, DC is making a lot of-, these companies are making a lot of money. Are they well managed, I'm not a railway expert, I would say yes, but I've always believed from a boss perspective, to make things more reassuring for all food companies out there, from farm gate to store and restaurants, we absolutely need to make food supply chains an essential service as soon as possible and it's-, it's-, it was in our report a couple years ago, we talked about it on our podcast.
Michael LeBlanc 20:23
Right, and that big supply chain report that it was there in print, right? Is-, and from my understanding of these things, that actually is not, it's neutral to positive for labor, right, because then, as a-, as you know, there's rules in place as arbitration, which is happening anyway, so Is that your understanding as well?
Sylvain Charlebois 20:39
That's right, and you still, you need to recognize workers’ rights as much as possible and so-, so they so look at the BC port situation last year, BC ports went on strike, but they did-, they had to continue to move grains along to the Vancouver port, to service Asia and things like that. So we need to nationalize that philosophy as soon as possible, and instead of actually, you know, keeping the entire economy hostage, especially the agri food sector in August and September of all times.
Michael LeBlanc 21:12
Well as and as you know, it wasn't just August. I mean, I talked to client might, some my clients had been preparing since May, because you have to prepare that it's going to happen. You know is on again and off-
Sylvain Charlebois 21:22
It takes work, costs money.
Michael LeBlanc 21:25
Horribly inefficient. Horribly inefficient. Now let's talk to someone who's not horribly inefficient. Let's get to our interview. I don't know what, that's a weird segue, but let's get to our interview.
Sylvain Charlebois 21:35
He's pretty efficient. He's a workhorse.
Michael LeBlanc 21:38
That's true, but first we're going to hear from, of course, our wonderful presenting sponsor from Caddle.
Michael LeBlanc 21:45
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Sylvain Charlebois 22:35
Well, we're back and as-, as a first guest for our fifth season, I don't think we could have actually gotten someone more famous. The incredible-, the incredible Tony Chapman is joining us today. I can't believe it that we have, we have Tony on for the first time on our podcast. Hey, Tony, how are you doing?
Tony Chapman 22:58
I'm doing wonderful. And right back at you. You two do such a great job. Food means the world to us. And the fact that you're out there, day in and day out, just really talking about the world of retail, the world of food, I just think it's-, it's music to a lot of people's ears.
Sylvain Charlebois 23:13
I assume a lot of people know you, but for some-, some of the folks out there who don't know who Tony Chapman is, and tell us more about you and your podcast, Chatter That Matters, that is a top ranked podcast in Canada. Tell us more about who you are and-, and what you do.
Tony Chapman 23:33
The best way to describe me, as a serial entrepreneur, my entire life has been focused on insights, trying to understand the audience's head, heart and hands, how they think, how they feel, more importantly, how they act and drawing upon that intelligence helping clients design the kind of content that matters and out of that came this podcast Chatter That Matters, which is really stories about people overcoming circumstances to chase their dreams and when they do, change their world and ours for the better and out of that interesting enough, came Chatter AI, Content That Matters, that combines everything I've done in my life to and using artificial intelligence to really try to give my clients an advantage, try to get a way that they can get heard in this age of noise.
Sylvain Charlebois 23:33
Interesting. So, chatter AI, so how does that work? Is it launched already? Are you launching it in the fall? So, what is it really? How do you help your customers?
Tony Chapman 24:26
Well, the best way to describe it is, if you take any client, I can take them into a virtual room, and I can say, look over on the left, and there's 3 to 5 million comments that consumers have made about you and your category and I can wave a magic wand, and I can-, I can organize them in terms of they think, feel and act. I can organize it in terms of where they are in the buying process. What are the things they're interested in, but before you get too excited, you look on the other side of the room. I've also organized 100,000, maybe 500,000 pieces of content from your-, your direct competitors, your indirect. I've even looked around the world and tried to see what really resonates with the consumer, and what has viral-ocity, and what are the things that have somehow found a way through this noise, and by taking that intelligence and then compressing it together, what I can draw is a winning hand that really identifies the insights that matter, ideas that really we should be focused on, product development, we should be considering and most importantly, the kind of content that we create that engages. It's almost like, if you can think of an analogy, it's fly fishing with the right bait at the right time, based on what that consumer really wants and needs, versus just this sort of proclamation that Coke is in or Pepsi is the choice of the new generation, really focusing and zeroing in on what matters.
Sylvain Charlebois 25:48
That's great. Congratulations, Tony, on that launch. Great idea. Michael.
Michael LeBlanc 25:52
Yeah, I can't imagine that again. I better guess to kick off our season, and particularly with the questions that we've kind of come up with and Tony, want to tap into this wisdom, both your earned wisdom over the many years and the wisdom you continue to accumulate today and I want to start at small, new food brands, you know, SIAL, Sylvain and I have a lot of love for the SIAL innovation show. We do notice, though, that, you know, and we said this a few times last year's winner of the Innovation Award was bankrupt in six months. Innovation is tough, it's tough to get accepted by the market. What's-, what's your best advice, and how small brands can break through and get their space on the-, on the grocery shelf?
Tony Chapman 26:34
Well, a common theme that might resonate this show is this age of noise, there's too much and too many chasing a finite amount of time. That's a math problem. Second thing is you got a consumer that used to be a consumer of content is now a creator. So, they're really not paying a lot of attention to what's new out there. So if you're a small brand, if you've got-, first of all, make sure there's an unmet need, not just an idea you like, but it's an idea that if you put it in front of the right consumers are going to go, that's something that I've been looking for, or that's something that I'd be interested in trying.
Tony Chapman 27:06
So to do so you've really got to think of the consumer as a journey. How can you help them get to where they want to go, so if you're that new brand and you're focusing on nutrition, it's not just the fact that you might be combining a couple of interesting supplements or vitamins but is this a longevity play. Is this somebody that wants to-, that's 80 and wants to look 50? Is this somebody that just had a grandchild that wants to be healthy enough to watch them graduate? Is this a young person trying to do 26 hours in a 24-hour day, put your focus in your lens and your antenna on the consumer their journey where they're heading, and then legitimately ask yourself, does this brand or service or product help them get to where they want to go? That's your first thing.
Tony Chapman 27:45
The second thing is, you got to say, where am I going to build this brand? How am I going to get traction? Everybody wants to start in Walmart or Loblaw. You're going to get lost in those stores. You're going to pay a fortune to be in those stores. My next thing is, find the retail channels, online and bricks and mortar that really are relevant to who you are. You know, if you've got a new energy drink for kids that, you know make sure, why not sample it at a, you know, kids like teenagers, young adults, sample it where they are. Is it a comic store, is it-, is it a, you know, older adult, is it young adult, is it a cannabis store?
Tony Chapman 28:22
Find a way where they're already there, they've got an appetite and a zest for life, and say, that's where I'm going to first build the brand. And as it starts growing, build your distribution points and then when it gets to be big enough, Loblaw and Walmart are going to go after you, versus you going on your knees and saying, please take it, so less is more. Plant the seed. Grow It, fertilize it, prune it, take care of it, don't try to solve everything in a day and build that following and if that's not enough advice, watch every rock documentary you can about artists that somehow found a way to go from being unknown in a bar to headlining main stadiums because they had the same problem you did. They had to build the following.
Michael LeBlanc 29:03
Let's-, let's adjust our lens and talk about the big brands. I mean, you know, they're duking it out, they're power play, they're massive. There's consolidation. We see that every day. Sylvain and-, and I were talking about it as one of the major things that happened over the summer. Now, you know, we see these brands kind of seeming to be doing this, what I'd call the shrinkflation hustle, right, I'm going to sell you the same price point, but I'm going to sell you less, and, you know, I'm going to hit that cash flow consumer but really, and it's not a new problem, and a lot of brands introduce a lot of products just go nowhere. So, what's your advice to the big brands today, to, I guess, to do the same thing, cut through that clutter and-, and win with the groceries?
Tony Chapman 29:40
Well, the first insight you came out with is there's no longer a flight to value there's a stampede and Sylvain talks about it a lot on his media, that we're seeing consumers are saying, I don't care about frills, and I care about value added. I don't care about your points. What I care about is putting food on the table for my family. So, the first thing you're dealing with is the shrinkflation. Everybody's trying to do smoke and mirrors to get their price point. It's almost like the aggregators and travel. I'm going to tell you, you can fly to-, to-, from Toronto to Montreal for $400 but then you realize you haven't got a-, you have to pay for your seat and your baggage and everything else.
Tony Chapman 30:14
So, flight-, first thing is, everything's trying to get the price point, but the second thing that I'm seeing which is really interesting is, how do I create an itch? Get an end aisle display, get on that action alley where I can go from selling a half a dozen units to hundreds of units over the weekend and what's interesting to me is these mashups. You know, even last week, we saw Kentucky Fried Chicken and KD, Kraft Dinner come together, Coke and Oreo. So what they're doing now is saying, you know, if I just introduce a new flavor of Oreos, yawn, really not going to make any kind of news, but if I kind of mess with the consumer's mind, and half the consumers go, I can't believe how gross that sounds, and the other half goes, I wonder how that tastes, then all of a sudden, this mashup suddenly lifts the brand up.
Tony Chapman 30:57
And, and if you're smart with your retail strategy, you'll go and say, look at two shelves of that end aisle, we're going to put Oreo and Coke, and then we're going to put our other family of Oreo products. So that's the second thing I'm seeing on it, and then the third thing that I'm seeing is a lot of rationalization and sadly, this is happening in Canada, where these big multinationals go. By the time I duke it out at the end of the year, I've got X dollars, but they're Canadian dollars. I turn them into US dollars, is Canada worth it anymore and we're seeing major brands leave our country right now, because economically, we don't have the ability for them to make profit. So, lots of things going on, but I would say, if I was a big brand, more than anything else, you got to create some noise, because I would sadly say your category is essentially commoditized, private label done a great job saying you can get the same thing, equal stature, for less price. You have to find a way to create a niche and to me, mashups are probably the most interesting thing I'm seeing for big, commoditized brands in grocery stores.
Michael LeBlanc 31:58
I want to follow a thread that somebody said to me in an interview. I was interviewing someone who focused on marketing to new Canadians, and he said something I thought was very insightful. He said that used to be a growth strategy. Now it's the growth strategy. How do you think about marketing to millions, literally millions and millions of new Canadians?
Tony Chapman 32:18
It depends on where you are. You know, if you go as a mass strategy. You're going to fail with it because, for example, in Toronto, half the people who live in Toronto now would identify themselves as newcomers, or, you know, first generation, and they're coming with a whole different set of their taste buds, the brands are familiar with. So, you've got to make sure your-, your ethnic play is mainstream. You get out into the suburbs; you get into the rural areas. To me, your ethnic strategy is less about I have enough consumers to satisfy, and more, because of the internet and the world created a niche that-, that Canadian that's never tried Pakistani food might actually enjoy it or here's a curry that I can bring to you. So, it's almost taking what I would consider mainstream ethnic foods to the masses with a twist that to me-, so it'd be very different strategies. One is where I've got the population. You’ve got to own it, and you've got to be you've got to think of this as mainstream, as they move out you got to think of this as an opportunity to drive traffic, create some interest, impulse sales, and even in doing so, create some impulse margin, incremental margin.
Sylvain Charlebois 33:25
Let's-, let's shift gears a little bit Tony and I know that you're really good at reading the room when it comes to trust, consumer trust and-, and reputations and let's face it, if you go, you just spend two minutes on social media and you can feel that a lot of people are concerned about-, about the food industry. There's some trust issues there, absolutely, so how do you-, how do you see this situation right now, in 2024, do you see this as an issue? Do you think that the industry has done the-, the best it can dealing with-, with what it was given or-, or, could they do more really?
Tony Chapman 34:08
Well, I think that you've got to separate-, separate rhetoric from reality. The rhetoric is, you know, when politicians get hold of this and try to deflect their population around from how unaffordable Canada is and they want to always take the big brand in every category and make them the enemy number one, they're the reasons why, and then you have the reality, which is, what you do, is you actually use math and statistics to explain what is going on. The trouble is, in today's snackable content and social media sound bites, people just grab onto a headline and start professing like they know everything, versus actually listening to the professor. So that's the first thing, rhetoric and reality.
Tony Chapman 34:47
Second, second thing, can grocery stores do a better job, I think that they-, they lacked a lot of self-awareness for a long time where, you know, Galen Weston did such a brilliant job when, when life was affordable, being the guy that you didn't you know the uncle of the party you and that would sit there and tell you how to make chili. He did a-, he took like Dave Nichols and made it more of a-, the-, the friendly uncle he was, he was accessible, he was a normal guy, but the problem is when, when the world started getting unaffordable, he became enemy number one, because he was the person that was the billionaire getting richer every day at your expense and that's the danger when you make your the lead singer of your band, the person that also owns the company, it can work very well in good times, and it can come back and haunt you in bad times.
Tony Chapman 35:32
But if I was grocery stores, I'm not sure what else you can do, but until the consumer understands the math where the margins are made, how inflation is roaring through the entire supply chain, what the role of dairy boards are and for example, till they under-, they understand that a complex issue, the easiest thing they grab on to the sound bite is that, you know, the rich get richer, why, I've got to run to the food bank and that's-, that's the could they do a better job, I'm not sure, because, honestly, Sylvain, intelligent people listen to you because they want to understand that-, they want to know that there's complexity and that you've synthesized it. Sadly, more often than not, we're seeing it in politics. We're certainly seeing it in brand reputation scores, snackable content that people drop kerosene on and add a little bit of wind to is-, is really, sadly, the song of the day.
Sylvain Charlebois 36:26
Yeah, no, I agree entirely. It's a bit out of control, and so it's hard for grocers to maneuver all-, through all the noise going on right now and a lot of it is that, just unpredictable, for sure.
Tony Chapman 36:40
When it comes to grocery conduct, they, you know, when they-, they-, they-, and then they get out there and talk about that they're doing everything they can. They look very reactive to it. So very proactively, the same way when you go and pump your gasoline now and you see that sign from Esso telling you how much money is actually taxes and how much is gas, and you start realizing, jus-,t you start understanding the dynamics of of petroleum, maybe they should start doing a better job really educating the gro-, the shopper every time they shop at the grocery store. What is involved in the food chain, and where do they influence and where are other areas we should be looking for some-, some savings in terms of making things more affordable.
Michael LeBlanc 37:24
Yeah, no kidding. All right, so well, it just kind of follows on some of the suggestions you've had. If I-, Sylvain and I could wave a magic wand and poof, you become the CEO of a major Canadian grocer. What's the first three things you'd do?
Tony Chapman 37:37
I think the first thing is that I'd have a two-pronged strategy. The first, it would be value and be valued and what I mean by that is value as a stampede to affordability, this-, this life of uncertainty and insecurity that too many Canadians are facing. You've got to signal everyday value, and you’ve got to do that by really understanding the food basket, the necessities and doing everything you can to give the best possible price and it's not just shrink-inflation, it's really taking some frills out, everything you can to cut costs.
Tony Chapman 38:10
Be valued, if I was a grocery store like a Longos or Loblaw, more mainstream that still needs that sort of higher end shopper, I'd be focusing again on human journeys and saying because I'm not sure, when I look at longevity, I think of Loblaw. I'm not sure when I'm looking at my digestive system, I'm thinking of a Longo's. I'm not sure that when I'm thinking of my family nutrition and my young kids not having sugar crashes at elementary school, that I'm thinking of my grocery store, yet, food is the answer to so much of preventative health, and I think grocery stores have got to start really stepping up and educating consumers that there's a lot that they could be choosing with their food budget that would make for a better life and a healthier life. That's what I would do, value, make sure in the basic food necessities, we're doing everything we can, be valued, because the role food can play in helping me get more life out of life. Combine the two, and I think you got a winning strategy.
Michael LeBlanc 39:11
Well, last words of advice, and I'm going to frame it in two-starts and one-stop. And I guess this is a big question because you were talking to anybody in the food business here, whether it's a brand, small, big grocery, whoever, anybody in this wonderful business, two things they should start doing, if they're not and one thing they should definitely stop doing because maybe it never worked to begin with, or maybe it just doesn't work anymore.
Tony Chapman 39:30
I think the first thing is, really what we've talked about all along is that, that head, heart and hands or the consumer journey. Understand the consumer, the circumstances they're trying to overcome, what they're trying to chase in life and build your brand and business around that, as opposed to building it around the categories and building it around the ways we've always done things. Understand that food means the world to us, and what can we do to help consumers to get most of that world that would be that and really, the second thing is just take a look at my private label strategy and focus again on value and be valued, much like what Loblaw started and some of the others. You have this No-Frills. It's as basic as you can get, maybe it's the same package. It's the same recycling package that you bring, and do everything I can-
Michael LeBlanc 40:21
Are you worried about a perception that it's pay less, get less. You know, to put a fun twist on the Target slogan, which was 'pay less, get more'. Like it seems some of the latest initiatives are you pay less, but you get less too, are worried about that or is that on note?
Tony Chapman 40:35
I don't-, I don't think so on the value plant, because you're saying to people, this is the most important thing to you, bring a recyclable container and fill up your cereal that way. Fill up your packaging. It's good for the planet. It's good for you. We're going to save a lot of money. That's what I would really focus on, on that and then, on the other side of private label, do what Dave Nichols did years ago, where you imagine him shedding his way through the jungle to find the perfect ingredients to create the right sauce and romance the food, but I think the private labels kind of blended together and I that's what I would be doing, is separating it.
Tony Chapman 41:10
In terms of stopping, I was-, there's so-, too much in too many, as I said, chasing it. So much of this marketing, these offers, they're just-, the consumer is not interested in it. I would really focus on what matters most. I would reorganize my grocery stores because people are shopping for school lunches. They're shopping for backyard barbecues. They're not shopping meat and dairy and organic and private label, try to find a way to organize your stores the way consumers are thinking about organizing their pantry and I think if we-, if we-, if we sort of stop doing what we used to do and start doing maybe what the consumer wants, I think we would have an opportunity to redefine grocery and make it a very exciting place to shop and in terms of online, like competing against online grocers, which is really not doing very well in Canada. Remember, I can't squeeze the Charmin online, make your grocery stores exciting, displays, color, energy, experiences, tasting, sampling, adventure, so that when I go into that store, almost like I used to go to a Costco in the States. It was my date night on Friday nights. Think about my grocery store as this incredible odyssey of adventure.
Michael LeBlanc 42:27
And discovery. Adventure and discovery.
Tony Chapman 42:31
And discovery, if I do that, so that's-, that's what I would-, that's what I'd be focusing on, but no one's offered me the job yet, but-
Michael LeBlanc 42:36
Like I said, if we had the magic wand, you'd get the-, you'd get the job. Listen, we've only scratched the surface on your wisdom and if the folks listening want to get in touch or learn more, where do they go?
Tony Chapman 42:48
Chatterthatmatters.ca or, you know, wherever you get your podcast, just download Chatter That Matters. We're usually two-, two steps below you guys because you're just so good at what you do, but we're-, we're both up after his great Canadian podcasts. So, find it there.
Sylvain Charlebois 43:03
I would, I would listen to you all day. Tony, to be honest, it's just incredible. I've heard the name Dave Nichols, I think more times this past year than the last 20 years, something's going on here. There's a lot, there's lots of nostalgia going on.
Tony Chapman 43:20
It's the adventure he brought to food. You know, his insider's report was something I wanted to read. Food and drink and LCBO just came a high end, you know, elitist thing that you know, when his insider was so good, because the average person could put a little bit of this special sauce on their ribs and tell people-
Sylvain Charlebois 43:39
His style was not assuming too, his style really worked well.
Tony Chapman 43:45
I think they did that with Galen and then the trouble is, you know, there's-, Dave Nichols was a natural impresario. Galen was very good at at delivering content, but when the world changed, they didn't, they didn't have plan B set up for Galen, and all of a sudden the politicians were dragging him in front of-, in Ottawa and he showed up in a suit instead of a sweater, and it, you know, but like, listen, you're going to build your-, you make that your lead singer, and the world changes. It goes from Rock and Roll to punk, and you still want to be playing music, you got to-, you got to realize you got to change with it.
Sylvain Charlebois 44:18
Exactly. Listen, Tony, thank you so much for your time, and best of luck to you with your new projects this fall.
Tony Chapman 44:25
I appreciate it. Thanks for having me on looking forward to hearing it, and we'll share it as much as I can.
Michael LeBlanc 44:31
Let's wrap up with a couple of more issues. Let's talk about temporary foreign workers, which is particularly-, particularly a flashing point even this week with the Liberal government, you know, pulling back significantly, the hue and cry from industry about-, we've talked about this before. This it's, you know, it's a broader issue beyond the scope of this podcast. It's, but-, you know, it's probably been the largest public policy failing at all levels, it's not just federal, but provincial, with temporary foreign workers and the housing crisis, it's been largest, I think, the most significant public policy failing in my time, in my history that I can remember.
Michael LeBlanc 45:12
We've got millions of new Canadians. We're not building houses. They're stacking up like cordwood in places like Brampton, where these poor kids have no place to live, no prospects, and they're brought in on the cheap, anyway. There's so much, so much to unpack here, but let's keep this focused because it's a big-, big issue. Let's keep this focused on the food business. Now, we know temporary foreign workers are an essential, valued part of the agricultural system. Have been for many, many decades. I know farmers will find them places to live and you know, that's-, that's a long, what do you make of what's this to-ing and fro-ing, and you've got these big chains you're saying, listen, I can't operate without these people. What do you make of all this?
Sylvain Charlebois 45:54
I mean, first of all, I think they made the right decision. It was-, it was probably, it was late, obviously, but they made the right decision. The program started in 1973 under Trudeau, father, and it was expanded by Chrétien, another liberal Prime Minister, that-, that program, that cheap labor program, was created by Chrétien and I believe it was in 1993 or 94, I can't remember, anyways, that-, that really is-, has become the bulk of the foreign worker program and when you look at agri food in general, I mean, a lot of nodes do rely on that program now.
Sylvain Charlebois 46:41
Now with the announcement that we heard this week, what we learned is that most of these workers won't be impacted by the change. There were no details provided, but I hope it's true, because for farmers and for everyone, like manufacturers, I've visited plants. I mean, I saw, they're everywhere. I mean, absolutely and-, and frankly, I've always been, I always felt uneasy about the program because it really, it's, it's not incentivizing companies to reinvest in automation, in intelligence, and it just, it provides them with a with a way out, so to speak and-, and frankly, we all know what's going on with with, with youth unemployment in Canada, it's really-, really high, and that's why, that's part of the reason why. Now my understanding is that food service was not spared, and this is really, I think, where this change is going to be impacting the agri food sector.
Michael LeBlanc 47:42
I know the Restaurant Association, Kelly, they're up in arms about it. They've seen the cut off hard.
Sylvain Charlebois 47:48
They claim only 3% of all employees are actually hired within that program. I find that how to believe, I-, I think it's probably more, but anyways, I think they're in for a ride here, because I know a lot of restaurants do rely on that program now, and they're going to be forced to think differently about hiring and managing HR. So I think food service, especially fast food, is going to be really impacted by changes announced this week over the short term, over the long term. Well, as we get more details about farming, about manufacturing, then we'll be in a better, better position to assess was-, was-, was the announcement a surprise to you, Michael?
Michael LeBlanc 48:32
No, I think, I think the liberals had to come out with something. They're getting pummeled with it. Listen, it's one thing to have a million temporary foreign workers, like I said, though they're stacking up like cordwood, there's nowhere to live, like, you know, these restaurants aren't giving them trailers to live in, like the farmers do. There's nowhere to live. You look at these pictures of, you know, landlords selling a bed in the middle of a kitchen for 600 bucks a night. It's not fair. It's not fair. It's not close, it's close to, you know, it's close to fraud. Have these kids-
Sylvain Charlebois 49:03
It's-, it's important to remind ourselves that when we talk about foreign workers, we're talking about human beings, really. And-, and we're also talking about companies trying to plan so things need to be predictable for them and so right now, we have a government that was that opened up the floodgates to immigration and basically called out any politicians that-, that were against, that was against more having more immigration as racist on Canadian, xenophobic. You know, that's those are, those are things that liberals have said, and now this policy-
Michael LeBlanc 49:41
It-, You know, I was reading some, I was reading some great Angus Reid research on this and basically, Canadians attitudes towards immigration has not changed. They're very positive to it, like, relentlessly positive.
Sylvain Charlebois 49:51
Yeah, probably, yeah. It's, it's how it's managed.
Michael LeBlanc 49:54
Right, exactly, and where they people-, you know, where the people live and how many at one time. You. Know, listen, you know, the population birth trajectory is just like it is in the US, flat to down. In fact, it's not flat at all, it's down.
Sylvain Charlebois 50:07
We need more immigrants in Canada. We absolutely-, I think everyone agrees with that, but we do have a GDP per capita recession.
Michael LeBlanc 50:16
Well, it means we literally-
Sylvain Charlebois 50:19
We welcome a lot of new people, and our economy is going nowhere, so we need to figure that nut out and once we do, then we can actually start welcoming more people again.
Michael LeBlanc 50:30
Yep, I'd like to see a pause, because we just need to catch up. We need to catch up by building houses, that'll-, immigration is essential.
Sylvain Charlebois 50:37
Build-, build skills, train people, but actually, today, I was talking to someone in Quebec City. I heard that some foreign workers have become Canadian. They're actually buying a McDonald's together.
Michael LeBlanc 50:48
Interesting.
Sylvain Charlebois 50:48
Isn't that cool?
Michael LeBlanc 50:49
Innovation, right? Immigration, immigrants, new Canadians, bring a lot of innovation.
Sylvain Charlebois 50:53
So, they stay-, they're investing in Canada. They're-, they've become Canadian. So, there's some great stories that we need to, you know, we need-, we need to remind ourselves there's some great things that can happen with these programs, as long as they're well managed.
Michael LeBlanc 51:06
Yeah, Yeah, absolutely. Who knows, maybe some of these kids brought over to master excel in these fraudulent schools, can maybe frame a house, maybe learn how to frame a house.
Sylvain Charlebois 51:14
Exactly. Yeah, exactly.
Michael LeBlanc 51:16
Maybe it all comes together. Some bad news, right, about people dying, drinking plant-based beverages over the summer. Kind of shocking. I mean, you made the point that, you know, don't think this is just, you know, plant-based beverages are not somehow exempt from all the bad things that can happen to-, to foods. I mean, this seems to have been lingering on for a while and is it-, is it-, Is it done now, are we-, are we okay with it, what are your-, what are your thoughts, what are your thoughts on that?
Sylvain Charlebois 51:42
It was-, it was a bizarre-, it was a bizarre situation, because when you, I mean, when you think about a listeria, recall, because it was listeria. A lot of people thought immediately about maple leaf in 2008 and-, and the media, it was all over that recall, 23 Canadians died, unfortunately, there were many cases that were unresolved, but it was, it was a mess. It was a high-volume product, McDonald's, Tim Horton's were involved and so-, and of course, Maple Leaf had to apologize to the Canadian public on August 18, 2008 but they actually got in front of it at some point. They actually, you know, they had a press release every day, they informed the public about what was going on. Oh yeah. They were really out there, Danone, nothing, nothing. There was a press release on August-, on July 19, and that was it. I mean-
Sylvain Charlebois 52:42
It was a contractor plant, right? It was a contractor plant or something.
Sylvain Charlebois 52:44
Contractor plant, but, and, of course, because they packaged, it was a co packer is, and they co package Silk and Great Value by-, by Walmart and, but to be honest with you, I don't think that-, I think the known should have, actually should have been more involved, I think, because there was a lot of questions, like, why did someone die in August of 2023 and the recall was done on July 8, 2024 almost a year later and what happened at the plant, what are your plans? How are you addressing the issue and these are all questions we got answered for from Maple Leaf, but not this time and so I was a little bit, I was a little bit disappointed with the-, I mean, on the CFI side, I think they actually managed things the way they could, but it is a summer recall as Maple Leaf was, in the summer you gotta be more proactive. Gotta work hard to get attention right, you got to work because people don't listen to the news as much and there were the Olympics going on and everything else and so and in 2008, they were the Olympics in Beijing and so you really had to be deliberate. You have to be deliberate in coming out with your risk communication strategy and so I thought it was a bit disappointing.
Michael LeBlanc 54:06
All right, well, it's fantastic to be back in the mic. So much fun. I hope the listeners enjoyed our summer, and we got a great season ahead of us. We're just kicking it off. We're gonna go all winter, we've got a bunch of great guests already lined up, and we'll be at the coffee conference, will be, will be at SIAL next year. That's next year. We're talking about that next year, we're June and August, so anyway, it's great to be back. I'm Michael LeBlanc, consumer growth consultant, media entrepreneur / Mavon and a bunch of other stuff and you are?
Sylvain Charlebois 54:36
I'm the Food Professor, Sylvain Charlebois.
Michael LeBlanc 54:40
All right everybody see you next week. Enjoy that, for those of you who’ve got kids, back to school time, and we'll be talking a bit about back to school next week actually, talk some back-to-school economics.
Sylvain Charlebois 54:50
Pumpkin spice, probably.
Michael LeBlanc 54:51
Pumpkin-, well, we did talk about leadership changes at Starbucks. All right everybody see you next week.
Sylvain Charlebois 54:58
Take care, folks.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
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