In this solo episode we're talking about the North American avian flu outbreak, two new research releases from the Dalhousie Agri-Food Innovation Lab: 1 Million new Canadian gardening households, and Plant Based Still Expensive versus Meat. For our Trying Stuff segment we try yummy frozen food bowls from PuraVida, which we don't quite pronounce properly in the show but that doesn't get in the way of tasting their great food!
We're back from the SIAL food innovation show in Montreal, back from our honeymoon with amazing food and food creators from Canada and around the world! Be sure and check out our livestream from the show, and keep your eyes and ears open for all our bonus episodes recorded live in our podcast studio on the show floor!
In this solo episode we're talking about the North American avian flu outbreak, two new research releases from the Dalhousie Agri-Food Innovation Lab: 1 Million new Canadian gardening households, and Plant Based Still Expensive versus Meat.
For our Trying Stuff segment we try yummy frozen food bowls from PuraVida, which we don't quite pronounce properly in the show but that doesn't get in the way of tasting their great food!
We also talk about lab grown milk from Israel and Denmark, ReMilk, and how one single manufacturing plant could take 50,000 diary cows out of circulation, the entire dairy industry in Nova Scotia.
About Us
Dr. Sylvain Charlebois
Dr. Sylvain Charlebois is a Professor in food distribution and policy in the Faculties of Management and Agriculture at Dalhousie University in Halifax. He is also the Senior Director of the Agri-food Analytics Lab, also located at Dalhousie University. Before joining Dalhousie, he was affiliated with the University of Guelph’s Arrell Food Institute, which he co-founded. Known as “The Food Professor”, his current research interest lies in the broad area of food distribution, security and safety. Google Scholar ranks him as one of the world's most cited scholars in food supply chain management, food value chains and traceability.
He has authored five books on global food systems, his most recent one published in 2017 by Wiley-Blackwell entitled “Food Safety, Risk Intelligence and Benchmarking”. He has also published over 500 peer-reviewed journal articles in several academic publications. Furthermore, his research has been featured in several newspapers and media groups, including The Lancet, The Economist, the New York Times, the Boston Globe, the Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, BBC, NBC, ABC, Fox News, Foreign Affairs, the Globe & Mail, the National Post and the Toronto Star.
Dr. Charlebois sits on a few company boards, and supports many organizations as a special advisor, including some publicly traded companies. Charlebois is also a member of the Scientific Council of the Business Scientific Institute, based in Luxemburg. Dr. Charlebois is a member of the Global Food Traceability Centre’s Advisory Board based in Washington DC, and a member of the National Scientific Committee of the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) in Ottawa.
Michael LeBlanc is the Founder & President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company Inc and a Senior Advisor to Retail Council of Canada as part of his advisory and consulting practice. He brings 25+ years of brand/retail/marketing & eCommerce leadership experience, and has been on the front lines of retail industry change for his entire career. Michael is the producer and host of a network of leading podcasts including Canada’s top retail industry podcast, The Voice of Retail, plus Global E-Commerce Tech Talks , The Food Professor with Dr. Sylvain Charlebois and now in its second season, Conversations with CommerceNext! You can learn more about Michael here or on LinkedIn.
Be sure and check out Michael's latest adventure for fun and influencer riches - Last Request Barbecue, his YouTube BBQ cooking channel!
Michael LeBlanc 00:05
Welcome to the Food Professor Podcast, episode 47. I'm Michael LeBlanc.
Sylvain Charlebois 00:10
And I'm Sylvain Charlebois.
Michael LeBlanc 00:12
Well, Sylvain we are back. We're back from SIAL Food Innovation show. And, (crossover talk), -
Michael LeBlanc 00:17
It's going to be so great to spend the time with you. It's the longest time we've spent together, I think. Probably since, (crossover talk), -
Sylvain Charlebois 00:18
I know.
Sylvain Charlebois 00:19
I know. It, it feels like I'm back from a honeymoon, with you, in paradise in food innovation paradise in Montreal, it was great. Three days of fun. Three days of meeting great entrepreneurs, great companies. It was awesome. And it was your first SIAL too.
Michael LeBlanc 00:44
It was my first SIAL and boy, I was so impressed. You know, I was impressed by the crowd, the organizations. Xavier, if you're listening, you and the team did a fantastic job. They made us feel right at home, we had a nice podcasting studio, we'll post some pictures of that.
Sylvain Charlebois 00:48
Oh yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 00:49
You know, it was just, it was our home away from home for three days, and we produced some great content. So, for the listeners, look for multiple, multiple bonus episodes, and each bonus episodes about 15 minutes. We, we,
Michael LeBlanc 01:11
And you, you did an amazing job of finding and curating food people from different provinces and, and different products and then even some tech, and, and so we got a lot of great episodes, bon-, we're, I'm going to release some, we'll release them as bonus episodes. Starting this week, I want to, (crossover talk), -
Sylvain Charlebois 01:26
Yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois 01:27
Yeah. This, this year we didn't go international all that much. Even though SIAL is very internationalized. We got one company from Italy and a manufacturer of olive oil. Oh, man.
Michael LeBlanc 01:41
Good stuff, man.
Sylvain Charlebois 01:42
We, we, I think we had like 10 Trying Stuff sessions in two days. It was. Yeah, it was a food orgy going on in our studio. It was pretty awesome. I mean, seriously, you can't beat that.
Michael LeBlanc 01:57
No, it was, it was fantastic. And, you know, we produced some great content, met, met lots of great people and looking forward to next year. So, next year, it moves from Montreal to Toronto as is its habit kind of pre COVID. So, I expect to be back and, and having some more fun, basically a year from today, right? I mean, it's, I think it's in early May, next year. So, -
Sylvain Charlebois 02:18
I believe it's Toronto's sixth edition. Because SIAL really was only in Montreal for a while, for a few years. But they decided to alternate between Toronto and Montreal at the begin-, at the beginning, Toronto wasn't as big but, but Toronto is actually getting bigger. And my guess is in a few years from now, Toronto will actually exceed Toronto will actually exceed Montreal, I think.
Michael LeBlanc 02:48
Well, lots of, lots of, I mean, I think of head office for grocers. If we just pick one sector you got Metro, Costco is in Ottawa. So, it's a quick drive.
Sylvain Charlebois 02:56
A lot of manufacturing (inaudible) Ontario as well. So, yeah, there's lots of attention in Ontario, obviously. So, it, it's very easy access. And frankly, the facility’s really great for conferences. The floor is right next to conferences, so, -
Michael LeBlanc 03:14
Yeah. (Crossover talk), It makes it a bit easier to do the content.
Sylvain Charlebois 03:16
Yeah, it's easier. Absolutely. Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 03:18
Well, so, all, for, to all the listeners look forward to that. And we did our very first ever live stream which was just a pile of fun. We tried some hot chocolate and, and some coffee that warmed itself up. Xavier popped his head in, and it was just a blast, and those who missed the live stream you can go to our YouTube site and it actually is there in its full glory, all 57 minutes and really it's a good, you know we won't spend much more time on SIAL in this episode. Just, just go watch that episode. That was our kind of break down of, (crossover talk, -
Michael LeBlanc 03:50
Of SIAL, so, it was really great. So, check that out and today we've got a great, it's a solo episode just you and me, but we've got a great Trying Stuff, speaking of Trying Stuff, with, yeah, look at this, this PuraVida frozen foods. So generous. I mean they sent just a case of this stuff. What's this mushroom, (inaudible)? -
Sylvain Charlebois 04:07
Oh yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois 04:09
Yeah, yeah, I mean, our, our freezer's full, full of goodness.
Michael LeBlanc 04:13
Full. I was already, I was waiting for this. So, we got lots of great stuff to get to. Thanks to the folks who, (crossover talk), -
Sylvain Charlebois 04:18
So, what are you going to try Michael?
Michael LeBlanc 04:20
I'm going to try the Forbidden Artesian (inaudible) and Veggie Bowl, (crossover talk), -
Sylvain Charlebois 04:25
I almost, I almost went for that one but I'm going to be trying the Tahini Buddha Bowl.
Michael LeBlanc 04:31
That's a good one.
Sylvain Charlebois 04:32
Oh yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 04:33
I'm actually, I, I was debating the Cilantro Chicken Baja Bowl.
Sylvain Charlebois 04:38
Oh, yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 04:39
I mean, they all look amazing. I've actually tried a couple of them already. I tried the Brussel Sprouts and Bacon and one other because there's so many.
Sylvain Charlebois 04:47
Brussel sprouts and bacon.
Sylvain Charlebois 04:49
I'll have to tell my kids because my stick, my kids actually start to eat all of, all of them. I said, I haven't made, I haven't done my Trying Stuff episodes yet. Stop! Stop!
Michael LeBlanc 04:50
They were delicious. Like, pop into a microwave. And anyway, it was all delicious but we'll get to that.
Michael LeBlanc 05:01
That seems to be an issue in your house. But, -
Sylvain Charlebois 05:02
I know, I know.
Michael LeBlanc 05:03
It's such good food. So much good food. We'll have to get your freezer marked The Food Professor, right? Just kind of a separate,
Sylvain Charlebois 05:11
With a lock.
Michael LeBlanc 05:12
Chest freezer. Yeah, with a combination lock,
Sylvain Charlebois 05:14
Yeah, exactly.
Michael LeBlanc 05:15
Do not touch, do not touch. Alright, so, that was SIAL. We got that coming up in the episode. Let's jump into the news. I wanted to start with, with the avian flu. So, -
Sylvain Charlebois 05:24
Oh, yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 05:25
I've been hearing a little bit about this. I didn't hear about it until I saw you. It's not really been a big deal in the news, I would have seen it. But what's going on here? How big an issue is it and talk about, if -
Sylvain Charlebois 05:35
It's big news for the, the poultry industry and, and for the duck industry in particular, it was actually the height of the crisis. I think was actually happening last week while I was at SIAL, and I was getting phone calls and, and reports about what was going on.
Michael LeBlanc 05:52
Yeah, you were doing a bunch of interviews. Yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois 05:54
Yeah. So, I think we're, we're almost at 800,000 birds euthanized or, or killed as a result of the Avian flu in Canada. In the US, it's over 32 million.
Michael LeBlanc 06:05
32 million? wow.
Sylvain Charlebois 06:06
Yes. Yes. (Crossover talk)
Michael LeBlanc 06:08
So is this a bigger problem, is this a bigger problem in the US than it is here, or is it just, (crossover talk), scale, -
Sylvain Charlebois 06:12
So, I, I not to get into the science behind all this. But where does this come from? Does it just, is there, is, is it a spark?
Sylvain Charlebois 06:18
Right, right now it is, absolutely yeah. Now, there's, you got to divide the, the farming community into two with the avian flu. You got poultry and you have ducks. Poultry, you can really, even though losing birds can be devastating, you can recover very quickly. The production cycle is what, two months? So, you can recover. Abbotsford in 2004 was the worst outbreak we've ever seen as a country. Had, we had to euthanize almost 20 million birds at the time. And, and chicken prices, egg prices did go up as a result back in 2004. Very briefly, though, for a couple of months, but they went back down again, as the industry was recovering. But for ducks, ducks is a disaster. So, La Kinkel Ducks and Lebron, both were hit by the Avian flu. They lost, I believe all of their birds, but so, in order for the duck industry to recover, it will take at least a year if not more, because the genetics is also gone. And so, it's really tough to get back into it. And so, I wouldn't be surprised if Ottawa comes in and, and offers some support, like we saw with, with, with potatoes in, in Prince Edward Island just a few months ago. I think it's really something that the feds will have to look into very seriously.
Sylvain Charlebois 07:47
It's wildlife.
Michael LeBlanc 07:49
It's wildlife, right? (Crossover talk), -
Sylvain Charlebois 07:50
It's wildlife and due to the climate change, patterns are changing, birds are migrating in different ways now. The other thing that, that is a bit scary, of course, is that more and more cities are allowing city dwellers to have their own chickens as well. That can actually increase risks as well. So, there's, -
Michael LeBlanc 08:08
You know, I didn't think of that.
Sylvain Charlebois 08:10
The risks are very different. Yeah, risks are very different from when. I've never been a big fan of, of, of seeing city dwellers with farm animals for that reason, especially chickens. It's just, it's really nobody, nobody's like, few people are trained veterinarians. So, you don't know for sure how to test or, or make a proper diagnostic and, and then that can impact our, our, our nation's food security. So, I've never been a big fan of, of life. So, of course urban culture is, is, is important, but livestock, different story, especially because of climate change.
So, so, for soy farmers, I mean, it's, it's our farmers are worst nightmare for sure. But I got to tell you, Michael, I've been reassured by how things have been managed so far. CFIA has done a pretty good job. They've been on top of it. Now, whether or not they are, they're informing the public properly is, is another story. It's always been a problem at the CFIA. We never, getting the proper numbers is, is, is always difficult. But farmers are really on top of it. It's a vertically coordinated industry as well with supply management. I mean, if there is one advantage of supply management, it gets people to talk and work together. And, and that's what you need to deal with the Avian flu.
Sylvain Charlebois 08:34
And I was at a, I was a guest speaker at a Poultry Association event, and I was sitting at a table and some folks started talking to the couple of guys beside me and they were beak trimming, they had the beak trimming business. I had no idea about the whole beak trimming business. And they were just talking about how they went from farm to farm and trimmed beaks, but that, that they had different teams that rotated because of biosecurity and these guys were talking about biosecurity and you know, the average on the average, you know, person I didn't wasn't thinking of all that. So, I know it's very first very front, very thought of in the industry, this whole biosecurity. You don't have the same people going from farm to farm. So, -
Sylvain Charlebois 10:10
Yeah, no, absolutely. And, and the advantage that we have over the US is that farms are spread out a little bit more, we have more space in Canada. So, it really reduces risks, but the CFIA really in 2004, the way they managed Abbotsford was a disaster. Like a true, we shouldn't have had to euthanize 20 million birds, but they did learn from their mistakes. And, and today, their approach is much more rigorous. And, and frankly, the approaches is more professional. And, and they are, and they're able to work very well with industry and farmers.
Michael LeBlanc 10:44
All right. Well, it's a nice segue actually.
Sylvain Charlebois 10:46
So, it's a positive, it's a positive story to be honest, except for the fact that ducks, if you're a duck fan out there, the avian flu situation is a, is a, is a dire one for sure. I think for a while. It's going to be tough to get ducks in to find duck products Canadian duck in any store, really. Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 11:08
Interesting. Well, it's actually a nice segue to, let's get into some reports from Dalhousie University from the lab.
Sylvain Charlebois 11:14
Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 11:15
And the first report I want to talk about was released Monday, I think, or Tuesday.
Sylvain Charlebois 11:20
Yeah, Tuesday. Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 11:21
Yeah, Tuesday. So, this is about gardening. So, you're talking about to raising, raising livestock at home, let's talk about raising vegetables at home. So, according to your report, I have a copy here. And I'll put links into the show notes so everyone can go get the copies, they're both, both ones are public now. A million households in Canada intend to garden for the first time.
Sylvain Charlebois 11:42
Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 11:43
You know, I, I looked at this and this, you know, Saskatchewan different provinces. So, what did, what did you learned from here? I mean, in some ways, I guess it's no surprise a little bit because, prices you know, what a, what a great time to garden at home. Prices are going through the roof. So, is that the key driver? Do you think or, or what's, what's behind all this?
Sylvain Charlebois 12:03
Well, there's lots of things going on. I'm just curious. Like, you're a great cook, Michael. But are you a gardener?
Michael LeBlanc 12:09
Well, no. But, (crossover talk), -
Sylvain Charlebois 12:12
You know (crossover talk), everything.
Michael LeBlanc 12:14
No with an Asterix and the Asterix is my father-in-law. My Portuguese father-in-law is an amazing gardener. And basically, they, they give us all the you know, they're, they're seniors, so they don't eat a lot. We get everything he makes.
Sylvain Charlebois 12:27
Oh, yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 12:29
So, herbs. I'm limited to herbs, but I'm starting to think, and I don't really have a, I'm just looking at the backyard. You know, my wife laughs at me when I say we should garden. She goes, why? We've got a master gardener. He follows the moon phases and everything. And he makes amazing stuff. (Crossover talk), -
Sylvain Charlebois 12:41
Absolutely. Yeah. It's there's a lot of science to it. And, and so, this is the second time we've actually surveyed Canadians on this issue. Well, the first time was actually (crossover talk), -
Michael LeBlanc 12:52
Angus Reid, right? You were partnered with Angus Reid on this one? Yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois 12:55
Yeah, and so. So, thank you, Angus Reed for, for all the data. Back in 20-22 years ago, we did survey Canadians, the gardening rate in Canada was 51%, which was actually higher than expected. This time around, it's 52%. Now you're saying well, how come if there's a million more gardeners, why aren't we seeing a higher number? Well, basically, what we're finding out is that a lot of people are giving up. Yeah, but the number of people starting gardens will outnumber the people who are giving up gardening this year, essentially.
Michael LeBlanc 13:32
Well, it's like an over under. I saw that and I guess, and we talked about this on our episode for the research, it's hard, right? Being a gardener is hard. (Crossover talk), -
Sylvain Charlebois 13:38
Oh, absolutely. It's a lot of work.
Michael LeBlanc 13:40
It's a lot of work. Now there's some products out there that make it less a lot of work, so to speak. I was looking at some products from Lee Valley Tools out of Ottawa, they've got some above ground things, you know, if you want to get your feet wet, because I was looking at them for myself. To raise some carrots, do some carrots or something. But yeah, so, -
Sylvain Charlebois 13:57
That's right.
Michael LeBlanc 13:58
But, but the net, net of it is, if I do the math, more people this year will be having a home garden, even with the ones that stopped right? So, -
Sylvain Charlebois 14:06
That's right.
Michael LeBlanc 14:07
That's a momentum. There is certainly a momentum behind it right?
Sylvain Charlebois 14:09
Oh, absolutely. And so, garden centers will, will be busy over the next little while and that's a great thing I mean for, for education, people will have probably a better appreciation for how farmers are doing and gardening is hard work. And, and the other thing we also noticed that 41% of people who intend to garden this year, want to do it to save money. Now, I don't know about you, Michael but, I'm, I'm not entirely convinced you can actually save money when you garden unless you have capacity. And you commit to, to, to gardening for several years to (inaudible) size, some of the things that you bought at Lee Valley, you know? It's, it's, it, it can get very, if, if you go over the top with gardening it can cost you a lot of money.
Michael LeBlanc 14:59
Yeah, yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois 15:00
So, that's the thing about gardening. So, a lot of people are, like two years ago, they were pushed because of some food insecurity, overpowering emotion, -
Michael LeBlanc 15:11
Or they were looking for a hobby, right? They were looking for a hobby, too. I mean, people had more time on their hands.
Sylvain Charlebois 15:15
And still today, it's the same thing, the vast majority of gardeners see it as a, as a hobby, which I think it is. But I've always believed that gardening is, is, is very much about allowing city dwellers or anybody to connect with agriculture, to connect with the earth's, with Mother Earth, in some serene way. And if you feel proud about growing your own tomatoes, your own cucumbers, power to you, it's great. And, and the other thing that came out of the, two of the things that came out of our survey this year that didn't come up before, people believe that what they grow is a better quality than at the store. And two, half of new gardeners this year, will be und-, under the age of 35.
Michael LeBlanc 15:59
So, interesting, right? I mean, you know, there's so many benefits, I'm looking at the why you don't and your number one is I don't have space in my backyard again, I'm going to link. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not sponsored here by Lee Valley tools. But they've got some things that make it easier to grow.
Sylvain Charlebois 16:15
It's a great shop in Ottawa. And, and I think they have stores. Where do they have stores? (Crossover talk), -
Michael LeBlanc 16:21
Yeah, they're coast to coast. And they've got a great online site. I actually, I know the folks, Jason and the folks from Lee Valley Tools. They run a great business, and they're very passionate about their business. Anyway. So, that's one study. The next study, which is, I found super interesting. Is this idea of plant-based versus meat? In terms of, -
Sylvain Charlebois 16:41
Yes.
Michael LeBlanc 16:42
You call them analogs. So, basically, you compare, and I've had this question, we've kind of talked about it okay, with the rising crisis of, of the trifecta. Is this the doorway for meat plant-based substitutes? Because we certainly saw lots of them at, at SIAL. So, what is your, what did the study tell you?
Sylvain Charlebois 16:59
Well, I mean, back in the fall, when we started to work on this with BetterCart Analytics with Mel-, Melanie Morrison, who we had on our podcast a while ago. I mean, they do amazing work. And so, I sat down with Melanie and said, Listen, why don't we look into diets, the cost of a diet, you know? The omnivore diet versus vegans, and who is actually spending more money out there. And we got to a point where we thought this is complicated. I mean, as you can imagine, Michael, I mean, you can go in many different directions with diets, right? So, that's why we basically stuck to a very simple formula. Let's look at the real stuff versus analogs. That's it. So, we looked at Turkey versus plant-based Turkey, we looked at beef versus plant-based beef and so, and we don't use plant based in our report, we use vegetable analogs because we, a lot of the livestock industry in general is not overly comfortable with the term plant based because they actually believe themselves that their product, (crossover talk), -
Michael LeBlanc 18:04
Plants, right, the right, right.
Sylvain Charlebois 18:07
And to a certain extent, I actually agree with that. I mean, and I've never been comfortable with the term plant based, really. I so, that's why we call them vegetable analogs in our report. So, -
Michael LeBlanc 18:18
I couldn't come up with a better name than that, by the way. (crossover talk)
Sylvain Charlebois 18:21
Yeah, I know, exactly. The nomenclature. I mean, it's like anything, and the nomenclature of a category does, does evolve over time. But this report, really, and so, before, I mean, last year, or two years ago, I thought Yeah, absolutely. Plant based products are, or vegetable analogs are more expensive. But with, with higher meat prices, I thought, hmm, maybe, maybe we're looking at you know, a wash here. You know, both will be the same. So, we looked into the, we actually collected over a million data points.
Michael LeBlanc 18:56
Wow!
Sylvain Charlebois 18:57
A million in just a few days.
Michael LeBlanc 18:59
(Crossover talk), I mean, that data, -
Sylvain Charlebois 19:00
Yes!
Michael LeBlanc 19:01
You're so impressed with that better, (crossover talk), -
Sylvain Charlebois 19:03
Man. It's incredible. We looked at both categories. We thought we're looking at a wash here. Either way, it's probably the same price. No. My goodness. So, we surveyed prices from January to March, only to realize that on average, vegetable analogs are 38% more expensive, -
Michael LeBlanc 19:23
Ouch.
Sylvain Charlebois 19:24
than meat products even with the increases we've seen recently with beef and, and chicken and pork. And accusation of collusion as well on top of that. I mean, I was just floored What were you surprised by results?
Michael LeBlanc 19:44
Yes and no, I mean, just you know, just speaking anecdotally, when I go out to shop you know, when I buy like a, a, a meat substitute for my burgers. I'm like, It's not cheap. It's not in, on, inexpensive. And we've talked about on the show, if we go back a bunch of episodes where we've had analogs, you know, the pricing is all over the map, right? Like, you know, the, the, you talked about one of the issues is they got to get their hands, their heads around pricing, because you know, (crossover talk), -
Sylvain Charlebois 20:13
Yeah. I think, I do think that the category is at the crossroads here. So, we now know that it's not competitive. It exists to create this, we all know that it creates, I don't think that category was created for meat eaters, it was created for curious consumers who are looking to, for some variety when it comes to proteins. And that's, that.
Michael LeBlanc 20:36
Flexitarians. Flexitarians basically. (Crossover talk), and there's about, -
Sylvain Charlebois 20:39
Yeah, exactly like there's about three 3-3.5 million flexitarians out there. Part time vegetarians looking at reducing the amount of animal proteins they ingest, which is great. But, if you're asking me right now, from a socio-economic perspective, if vegetable and olives are an option for consumers on a tight budget, the answer is no. And I think it's going to be a problem over the next few months. (Crossover talk). Over the next few years.
Michael LeBlanc 21:06
Is it a result of the high cost of, is it a scale issue, is it a high cost of processing? You would think if the industry was thinking about this, they would take the opportunity to lower the prices to do exactly what we hope to see or what we thought we might see, which is, you know, now's the time, strike now. Meat prices are going up. Never a better chance, never a better time to try alternatives. But it doesn't seem like that coordination is happening, right?
Sylvain Charlebois 21:33
I mean, on, on, on this show with Trying Stuff, we've tried a few products. And frankly, I think, and you would agree with me on that, Michael, is that products are getting better.
Michael LeBlanc 21:43
Yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois 21:44
But they're, they're getting more expensive to make as well. The fascination of actually recreating the tastes that people are accustomed to with the trifecta, within the trifecta, like beef and chicken and pork is, is getting, companies are spending a lot of money to produce analogs. That's, that's the one thing. But the other thing, what we've noticed with, with the data that came out of BetterCart Analytics, is that beef prices or meat prices did go up, but analogs have gone up as well. In the winter, which I thought was very interesting. And so, so, you're in so, to answer your question, I think you got a costing issue to produce these products. And too, margins, I think, I think basically grocers are, are committed to make these products. They're committed to a price point. And I'm not sure over time because sales are starting to cap in plant sales, (crossover talk), -
Michael LeBlanc 22:43
I guess, I guess the groceries might look at it, we'd, we'd love to get a grocer on here, we'll have to get a grocer on to talk about this. Maybe they see it as a specialty product and then price it accordingly. And specialty products tend to be, to be priced as if you know, the people who are buying them are a specialty buyer and perhaps have more budget to spend, which is probably the case here to four. If I can say here to four on this podcast. But, -
Sylvain Charlebois 23:04
But if you're asking me if, is the category positioned to convert people, from a dietary perspective, the answer is absolutely not.
Michael LeBlanc 23:14
Well, we'll have to get my friend Joey Bernardo, who's, who's now Vice President of meat and seafood at Longo's. Great friend of mine. And now he's now, he's in charge of that. So, we'll have to either get them on or get him in behind the scenes and see what he thinks about all this, all this stuff, meat substitutes, and all that. So, (crossover talk), that'll be fun. So, just before we get to Trying Stuff, I had one thing, just, just because it's connected to this conversation. So, you tweeted that in Israel, some interesting things are happening with lab produced, if I got this right, lab produced milk? (Crossover talk), -
Sylvain Charlebois 23:48
Yes. Precision fermentation. (Crossover talk), -
Michael LeBlanc 23:52
Yeah. I've never heard this.
Sylvain Charlebois 23:55
Yeah, so, this is a technology that, that now exists for, for a while. And it's, it's basically using microorganisms to replicate dairy proteins essentially, without cows. You're basically, (crossover talk) you can actually make milk now without cows.
Michael LeBlanc 24:16
Come on. Again, to be clear to me and the audience. We're not talking about dairy substitutes here, we're not talking about oat or soy or?
Sylvain Charlebois 24:22
No, (crossover talk), you're basically creating proteins in the lab. And so, this, this, this, I'm actually writing a book on proteins, right? It's going to be released in, in the fall in French. It's going to be called The Protein Revolution. And, and we're going to be talking, in the book, we're talking about all of these innovations that are coming up and frankly, dairy's in trouble. Because, now Israel has just built this massive plant, this particular plant can replace 50,000 cows. So, from a Canadian perspective, -
Michael LeBlanc 24:49
50,000 cows?
Sylvain Charlebois 24:58
Yes, so from a Canadian perspective you're, you're, you're looking at replacing 200 dairy farms. So, and, and in Nova Scotia, that's what we have. 200 dairy farms. So, so, (crossover talk), this is, this is pretty interesting stuff. And frankly, when you think about animal welfare, recalls, food safety, I mean, there, there are a bunch of stuff that really will give an advantage to precision, precision fermentation. And so, the company's name is Remilk. And I don't think that the, the dairy farmers of Canada are ready for this. Absolutely, and they've, they've announced that they'll be carbon neutral by 2040. Good luck to them. I mean, that's great. But I don't think they can compete against that. There's just, there's just no way.
Michael LeBlanc 25:50
So, so interesting. I mean, yeah, well, I'll put a link in the show notes to that company and I you know, tags on to the protein creation in Singapore and that we've talked about so interesting stuff. And this would be your,
Sylvain Charlebois 26:03
Didn't you notice that it didn't get a whole lot of press in Canada? (Crossover talk) Because I picked it up from the US. I'm in the US right now. So, that's why, that's why I was able to read about it. Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 26:15
Well, let's keep our eye on that. I mean, maybe we can get them to send us, send us some of that, that milk. That would be so, (crossover talk), -
Sylvain Charlebois 26:22
Oh yeah, I don't know. (Crossover talk) I'm in Tampa Bay, I can get that product. You, I'm, I'm sure they would have some issues at customs with that one in Canada.
Michael LeBlanc 26:35
All right, well. (Crossover talk),
Sylvain Charlebois 26:36
They are looking at you.
Michael LeBlanc 26:38
They were looking, they were looking at you when you walked by.
Sylvain Charlebois 26:40
They brought the dairy.
Michael LeBlanc 26:43
Oh, we love those guys.
Michael LeBlanc 26:45
We love them. And we loved all their, all their people and their cheeses at SIAL. All right, well, let's go. Let's transition from that into our Trying Stuff segment again, I'm going to try the, the Forbidden Asian Roasted Veggie Bowl, there it is. And the instructions on this are, I need to go microwave it for a few minutes. So, I'm going to go do that.
Sylvain Charlebois 27:05
Yes, we do.
Sylvain Charlebois 27:07
4-5 minutes and you, and you have to keep, so, you take this out and you have to keep the lid on.
Michael LeBlanc 27:14
Really? Okay.
Sylvain Charlebois 27:15
Yeah, yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 27:16
Keep the lid on and, oh, well all right. Well, I'm going to go do that. There it is. And we'll be back in five minutes.
Michael LeBlanc 27:24
All right, welcome back. We are back with our Trying Stuff episode. A very popular Trying Stuff episode. In this episode, we're featuring PuraVida foods frozen, and so generous. They gave us all kinds of, what, what's that? The Tahini Bowl, we got these pouches. Mediterranean Couscous, we got, -
Sylvain Charlebois 27:43
All my pouches are still in the, in my freezer. (crossover talk)
Michael LeBlanc 27:45
In the freezer, I get it, lock it up, keep it away from the kids. Basmati Orzo Mushroom Pilaf. And then we got these great bowls, -
Sylvain Charlebois 27:54
So many choices.
Michael LeBlanc 27:56
This, what's this one? Cilantro Chicken Baja Bowl, talk about convenience, and Toronto based company. Thank you very much for sending this along, (crossover talk), -
Sylvain Charlebois 28:04
Thank you.
Michael LeBlanc 28:05
Yeah, reminder to all the listeners. We don't get compensated or paid or anything like this. We just ask people if they want to be part of Trying Stuff and they send us out, (crossover talk), -
Sylvain Charlebois 28:12
We don't? We got, we got free lunch. That's, that's a real lunch.
Michael LeBlanc 28:14
We get free lunch. That's right. Yeah, exactly. So, I am trying the Forbidden, Forbidden Artesian Roasted Veggie Bowl. There you go. That's what I'm trying.
Sylvain Charlebois 28:26
Yeah, just the name itself is attractive, right? (Crossover talk), I mean how many times do you see the word forbidden in a grocery store?
Michael LeBlanc 28:32
You know what? You're, you're absolutely right. I mean, the way the write ups are of this stuff is, whoever is doing the packaging and the write ups, kudos to them because it's, you know, it just makes, Forbidden Artesian Roasted Veggie Bowl with Calabrian chili sauce. I mean, you know, (crossover talk), -
Sylvain Charlebois 28:46
It's yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 28:47
It's really well, (crossover talk), -
Sylvain Charlebois 28:48
It’s poetic. It's very poetic. Mine is the Tahini Buddha Bowl. I, I just feel like doing yoga, you know?
Michael LeBlanc 28:56
Well, let's, let's, okay, so, here it is. I've heated up in the microwave, they say four to five minutes. So, don't spill it here.
Sylvain Charlebois 29:02
It's a, it's a material, it's, (crossover talk), -
Michael LeBlanc 29:04
Paperboard. (Crossover talk), -
Sylvain Charlebois 29:05
Composting. Yeah, it's paperboard. Yeah. Very environmentally friendly.
Michael LeBlanc 29:09
So, I'm going to tuck in here, let's see how this. I've let it cool a bit because it was pretty hot. But, what's this one? This one's got a (inaudible) rice. Oh though. Good. Cheers. Give it a try.
Sylvain Charlebois 29:20
Yeah, cheers.
Michael LeBlanc 29:22
What a medley of flavors.
Sylvain Charlebois 29:23
Doesn't taste frozen. I can tell you that. So, mine has cauliflower, lentils, peppers, rice. Oh, my goodness.
Michael LeBlanc 29:34
Mine's got a bit of the sauce in it that's making it so fresh.
Sylvain Charlebois 29:38
I didn't add anything like zero. Not, no salt, pepper, sauces. Just, I'm just eating it like that. It's amazing. Very good.
Michael LeBlanc 29:48
It's really good. I mean, (crossover talk) this has got organic black rice, organic wheat berry, tri color quinoa, all organic, fire roasted yellow squash. What a medley of flavors in a rich Calabrian chili sauce. It's delicious.
Sylvain Charlebois 30:04
The eco-friendly packaging is impressive. Very impressive.
Michael LeBlanc 30:08
I mean, there's a lot, there's a lot of impressive things around this, you know from, it starts with the packaging, you know, your eco-friendly bowls, your quick, ready nutritious, like, talk to me a bit about. It seems like COVID was a bit of a, a tailwind for the frozen food section. I'm, I'm more a fan of frozen food than I used to be, because it's A); it's kind of like, some things the, the quality in my mind has gone up, you know, from at least my perception and then, you know, it's, it's a great thing to have on hand, it's convenient, and it feels like the right thing to do.
Sylvain Charlebois 30:41
The freezer aisle is synony-, has been synonymous to poor quality for many years. And so, companies were up against that. But I would say, for the last decade or so, we've seen a lot of quality stuff entering the market, including this stuff. More and more, people are looking for convenience, they're looking for stable prices, affordable prices, the freezer aisle is starting to see higher prices, but it's not, it's nothing like produce or, or the meat counter. So, it's a really safe place for people to save a buck or two. And, and the quality. There's little or no compromises to make it now.
Michael LeBlanc 31:22
That's, that's what jumps out at me the most is, you know, let's call it the stigma of frozen, that you're making some kind of sacrifice to have frozen fruits and vegetables. But the reality is, as exhibited with this product, there's no sacrifice there and, and you know, it's good food security, good for supply chain, you know, it's fresh frozen, I don't know the tech behind it. But whatever the tech they're using is pretty cool.
Sylvain Charlebois 31:45
Just keep on talking. I'm, I'm eating now.
Michael LeBlanc 31:47
Yeah, I'll just keep on talking. I mean, made with organic ingredients, no artificial flavors, vegan, if that matters to you. You know, this is eco-friendly packaging. You pop it in the microwave, you keep it frozen, and you got fresh, nutritious food that tastes great. Like, if you didn't tell me, if you put this on the side of one of my barbecue cooks and just served it up. I, I, I would think congratulations. That's a sophisticated meal. So, -
Sylvain Charlebois 32:13
Oh, yeah, no, it's very, it's very well done. So, absolutely.
Michael LeBlanc 32:16
Try this product. Go find it. I'm sure there's a store locator.
Sylvain Charlebois 32:20
Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 32:21
But try it. I enjoyed this episode of Trying Stuff.
Sylvain Charlebois 32:24
Thank you so much for sending this stuff. Thank you.
Michael LeBlanc 32:27
Yeah, very generous. All right. Well, listen, it's been a great episode. It was a solo episode. We got a lot going on actually for the podcast coming up, you and I will be back together actually at the Restaurants Canada Show,
Sylvain Charlebois 32:37
Yes.
Michael LeBlanc 32:38
In a matter, of a matter of weeks, which is fantastic. Actually, in a matter, matter of a couple of weeks. I'm looking forward to that. (Crossover talk), -
Sylvain Charlebois 32:43
So, I have a trip next week to Calgary. I'm back in Tampa. Then I'm actually flying into Toronto for the RC show. So, looking forward to, to that and looking forward to seeing you, which is where this whole podcast started. Really, two, a couple of years
Michael LeBlanc 32:56
That's right. That's right, it all started with some thoughts around the Restaurant Canada Show. We'll have lots of bonus episodes now starting to come out from SIAL. We're going to start. I'm actually starting to take bonus episodes for Canadian Grand Prix New Product Awards. So, some of the finalists in that. Lots of great content and we're going to take a hiatus as we always do over the summer. But I'll be pushing out these, I'm banking and then we'll be putting out all these episodes, highlighting these great entrepreneurs pretty much all, all summer. And then we'll resume kind of our live, so to speak, it's all live. But we'll resume the podcast in the fall just to kind of put some schedule ahead of people.
Sylvain Charlebois 33:33
Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 33:34
About what's going on. But until then, until I see you in person in Toronto, here in Toronto at the Restaurants Canada Show my friend. That's it. Let's wrap it up. So, thanks, everybody, for listening. I'm Michael LeBlanc. The President of M.E. LeBlanc Company, the host of a bunch of podcasts and food and bagel lover. And you are, -
Sylvain Charlebois 33:54
And a chef.
Michael LeBlanc 33:55
And a, and a YouTube chef, and a YouTube chef.
Sylvain Charlebois 33:58
Yes, Last Request Barbecue, which I think I should be getting an invitation soon as, as a guest on your show.
Michael LeBlanc 34:05
That's right. That's right, we have to,
Sylvain Charlebois 34:07
You promised.
Michael LeBlanc 34:08
decide, decide (crossover talk), I promised. You're, you're in, you're in. All right. So, if you're listening to this, (crossover talk), -
Sylvain Charlebois 34:12
You are Michael LeBlanc.
Michael LeBlanc 34:14
And you are,
Sylvain Charlebois 34:15
The greatest and I am Sylvain Charlebois.
Michael LeBlanc 34:18
The greater, greatest, The Food Professor and you can find us, please subscribe if you're just listening to this for the first time on any of the major platforms and check out our YouTube site, which with lots of bonus content and until we speak to you again, be safe and enjoy the food that you're blessed with.
Sylvain Charlebois 34:37
Take care.SUMMARY KEYWORDS
crossover, talk, people, analogs, gardening, prices, starting, products, absolutely, Toronto, food, episode, Canada, bowl, meat, bit, city dwellers, Michael, vegetable, industry