Welcome to the last episode of the season! Suited for a big finale, we have part two of our interview with the President and CEO of Retail Council of Canada, Diane J. Brisebois.
Welcome to the last episode of the season! Suited for a big finale, we have part two of our interview with the President and CEO of Retail Council of Canada, Diane J. Brisebois.
Retail Council of Canada is the advocacy organization representing retailers from coast to coast, of all formats, including grocers. In this episode, Diane talks about the Code of Conduct, the grocery industry’s relationship to it and her own thoughts on the matter, as well the future of retail.
In food news this episode, we celebrate the impact of Canada's Food Price Report, discuss perspectives from both sides about Health Canada’s impending decision regarding glyphosate herbicides, and unwrap the “Made in Alberta, by Albertans” campaign.
Dr. Sylvain Charlebois is a Professor in food distribution and policy in the Faculties of Management and Agriculture at Dalhousie University in Halifax. He is also the Senior Director of the Agri-food Analytics Lab, also located at Dalhousie University. Before joining Dalhousie, he was affiliated with the University of Guelph’s Arrell Food Institute, which he co-founded. Known as “The Food Professor”, his current research interest lies in the broad area of food distribution, security and safety. Google Scholar ranks him as one of the world's most cited scholars in food supply chain management, food value chains and traceability.
He has authored five books on global food systems, his most recent one published in 2017 by Wiley-Blackwell entitled “Food Safety, Risk Intelligence and Benchmarking”. He has also published over 500 peer-reviewed journal articles in several academic publications. Furthermore, his research has been featured in several newspapers and media groups, including The Lancet, The Economist, the New York Times, the Boston Globe, the Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, BBC, NBC, ABC, Fox News, Foreign Affairs, the Globe & Mail, the National Post and the Toronto Star.
Dr. Charlebois sits on a few company boards, and supports many organizations as a special advisor, including some publicly traded companies. Charlebois is also a member of the Scientific Council of the Business Scientific Institute, based in Luxemburg. Dr. Charlebois is a member of the Global Food Traceability Centre’s Advisory Board based in Washington DC, and a member of the National Scientific Committee of the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) in Ottawa.
Michael LeBlanc is the Founder & President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company Inc and a Senior Advisor to Retail Council of Canada as part of his advisory and consulting practice. He brings 25+ years of brand/retail/marketing & eCommerce leadership experience, and has been on the front lines of retail industry change for his entire career. Michael is the producer and host of a network of leading podcasts including Canada’s top retail industry podcast, The Voice of Retail, plus Global E-Commerce Tech Talks and The Food Professor with Dr. Sylvain Charlebois. You can learn more about Michael here or on LinkedIn.
Michael LeBlanc
Welcome to the Food Professor podcast episode 31. I'm Michael LeBlanc.
Sylvain Charlebois
And I'm Sylvain Charlebois.
Michael LeBlanc
This is actually our last live regular season episode until after Labor Day, but we've got lots of bonus episodes coming up. We'll talk about those in a minute. And today is our part two of our interview with Retail Council of Canada, CEO, President, CEO, Diane J. Brisebois. We really dive into the Code of Conduct, we're going to talk about that.
Sylvain Charlebois
That's the juicy part of the interview. Which is great. I mean, Diane really played the part there. She represents the sector very well. And so, yeah, it was a great interview all together.
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah. And, and, as we intended, it was a bookmark. We had Michael Graydon, who represents an organization that basically represents the makers of the food. And also, you know, he's, he's joined in with, with Sobeys, with Michael Medline, they have a perspective. Diane has perspective on behalf of Retail Council of Canada, and many of the grocers. So, it's a nice bookmark for our listeners, because you get both sides, and you can decide for yourself where it is. And there's been some recent news about it. So, we'll get to that,
Sylvain Charlebois
Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc
a bit later. So that's, that's pretty exciting.
Michael LeBlanc
And again, reminder for everyone that we've got bonus episodes that are out already. We've got a couple of great interviews with the private label folks at grocers, we've got Stacy Sopinka from Sobeys and Jenny Longo from Longo's. And both of them had lots of product into the Canadian Grand Prix and took home some hardware as well. So great interviews with, with both of them.
Sylvain Charlebois
Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc
And we've had interviews coming up with, with Leclerc, great food company who is
Michael LeBlanc
'Le-clair-re', Leclerc
Sylvain Charlebois
Michael it's 'Le-clai-re', Leclerc
Sylvain Charlebois
Yeah, they're, they're great innovators, you know, Leclerc and, and other companies. It's amazing. When you take, take a step back and you look at some of the food innovation happening in Canada, it's pretty amazing. I feel fortunate to be able to spend some time with the with those great innovators
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois
providing Canadians with great food products.
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah, you really get a good sense of both their tradecraft and their passion for it, right. I mean, you know.
Sylvain Charlebois
Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc
in some of these organizations, not all, have basically, what I find interesting is, is many of them have basically unlimited resources. Not exactly, but they're big enough to say we could, we could develop anything we wanted to. So, their, their discipline is very customer focused, and of course, performance focused and brand focus. So, the three come together, what are we going to make? What's going to be what's going to be popular and you know, what I liked about particular, about the Jenny Longo interview is they don't all make it. Right.
Sylvain Charlebois
That's right.
Michael LeBlanc
We don't get it right all the time. And sometimes maybe we're ahead a couple of years, sometimes we might know at work, right?
Sylvain Charlebois
Well, I don't know about you, Michael. But as we talk to, to these great food innovators, you, you come to realize that, that the design process of a new food product is similar to designing a new car, really.
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois
The cycle is pretty much the same. It's as lengthy, as hard, as risky as designing a new car.
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah. Yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois
And most people don't know that.
Michael LeBlanc
Let's jump into some of the news, so as we said later, in this episode, Diane will be on talking about, in part two, talking about code of conduct. But there's been some movement. We recorded that a couple of weeks ago. And Michael Graydon interview a couple of weeks, actually a month now. But since our conversation with Diane, there's been some movement on the file, as the policy-wonks would say, talk about that a little bit.
Sylvain Charlebois
Yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois
Well, yeah, we I think everyone was expecting something in July, from the Working Group, from the Federal Working Group, with provinces and territories. And it did happen actually, I think it was last week, the working group was basically giving the industry an ultimatum. I don't know. I don't know how you read the statement, but I saw it as an ultimatum you,
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois
you get a code,
Michael LeBlanc
Get it done?. Yeah, get it done.
Sylvain Charlebois
Get it done yourself, yourself amongst yourselves. Or else we're going to have to really come up with something because we do recognize, the Working Group has recognized that there's a problem. In fact, as you know, Michael, I did meet with the Working Group, I think it was about two months ago, maybe three months ago, we did talk about the issues and, and there is this recognition that something needs to be done. And so right now, what we're seeing is, Ottawa basically asking the industry to get its act together to make sure that, that practices are acceptable, ethically, morally acceptable. So that's, it's great news, but I don't think it's over. I think there's still, still a lot of unknowns here.
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois
Is that how you read the, the, the statement from, from Ottawa?
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah, it seems to be very much so, let's, A: this is an important issue to us. Now where it sits, because there's an election coming up will be another interesting thing. But it's not really exactly as we know, a federal issue that it's complicated, right, because federal versus provincial.
Sylvain Charlebois
This is where I kind of disagree with folks that are saying, "It's not a federal issue. It's really-". Well, yes, it's true. However, you need federal leadership, you can't really make a code work without nat-, some, some level of national coordination. And I think Diane will talk about that. And that's why folks like Diane, and Michael got involved, because I mean, there is this recognition that you need to
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois
really look at this issue federally,
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois
with the support of provinces.
Michael LeBlanc
I want to move on to the, to the food price report, you recently posted around getting some academic, I want to talk about two things: one, some academic recognition for the report, and then two, how's it going? Because I think you guys start now-ish, like it's a long run production cycle. So, talk about, talk about that.
Sylvain Charlebois
Yeah, no. So first of all, like, often you get rec-, some recognition by applying for awards, you know, you just apply and then you get a note of some sort.
Michael LeBlanc
Sure, yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois
This came out of nowhere, we had no idea I honestly, Michael, I didn't even know the, this, these prizes actually existed. It's called Gourmand International. It's actually headed by the Alfred Nobel Museum in Sweden. And so, we were notified last week that the Canada's Food Price Report - 11th Edition 2021 was shortlisted under the category University Press because they have tons of categories. So, we, we are shortlisted to represent Canada,
Michael LeBlanc
That's great.
Sylvain Charlebois
for, for these awards. And I think we should know whether or not we win. I think it's January or February of 2022. But I'm not sure. But we were very pleased to get the notes. And I did notify our partners University of Guelph, Saskatchewan, and UBC. And we're all thrilled. So, this is great. It's a, as you know, Michael, this is a multi-institutional collaboration project that requires a lot of work, a lot of coordination. So, and we're working on our 12th edition already.
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois
And we have a new partner, which is NielsenIQ,
Michael LeBlanc
Nice.
Sylvain Charlebois
NielsenIQ will actually provide us with, with the data, the actual data coming from grocers, telling us exactly what, what's been going on with food inflation, the numbers coming out of Stats-CAN aren't necessarily trustworthy, we do feel that some of the numbers are, are not accurate, which is why we, we, we prefer to rely on, on numbers coming out of NielsonIQ. So, we're very pleased to, to, to get the support from our really great organization, NielsenIQ. And frankly, I mean, some of the data that they have is unaffordable for most. So we're we feel very lucky and fortunate to, to work with NielsenIQ for this year moving forward.
Michael LeBlanc
How do you account for, in this report, and maybe it's just too difficult. You've called it shrink inflation, you know, in other words, you know, we're brands, they put out the same product, they keep the price at the same price point, but they make the product a little smaller.
Sylvain Charlebois
Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc
And that's not his, that's nothing new. And it is a way for brands to kind of keep their price point and keep things at what price they feel that needs to be but it is in an inverted way, inflation, right, you're getting less for your money than you did the day before. Do you factor that into the report? Or is that something that's a goal.
Sylvain Charlebois
Well, actually Nelson IQ does, but not necessarily Stats Can because they we've, we've never been able to get real clear answers from Stats Can. And when it comes to how they actually collect data, they'll send you, have a document telling you what the methodology is, and how many data collectors they have and, but they don't necessarily tell you what brands they look at. And when they look at them, how the data is collected, they just make a phone call to grocers, do they actually show up at the grocery store under which banner. There, there's, there's, there's a lot of unknowns that really made us feel uncomfortable. But when NielsonIQ we get more transparency, but the issue of translation, and as he as you mentioned, has been around for many decades,
Michael LeBlanc
True.
Sylvain Charlebois
but strategies have evolved though. I don't know if you've noticed, but back in 2008 - 2009, whenever, whenever commodity prices go up, that's when you start seeing more shrink-flation cases.
Michael LeBlanc
Sure, sure.
Sylvain Charlebois
Because costs for manufacturers do go up and they don't want to spook their clients, which is
Michael LeBlanc
Yep.
Sylvain Charlebois
fine. I mean, it's really that's how it is, in 2008 - 2009, it was really about lowering quantities per unit, I guess, over several months.
Sylvain Charlebois
What we're seeing now, there's still some of that going on. But what we're seeing now is that companies will actually shrink bite sizes, they'll keep the same quantity and six months, a year later, they'll actually reduce the number of units inside a box or a package.
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois
So for example, if you manufacture cookies, you may actually shrink the size of a cookie, you'll still keep the 200 grams or so per package. But a year or two from now, you're basically trained the market to accept a smaller cookie, a smaller bite size, which will eventually lead to shrink-flation. And so, I think companies are getting smarter with shrink-flation. I actually, I don't know about you, but I, I'm not upset about shrink-flation at all, I, there's nothing wrong with it.
Michael LeBlanc
No.
Sylvain Charlebois
It's just and it actually leads, I think it leads people to waste less, to be honest, you know.
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois
We're buying too much food anyways. And so, it's kind of the 90s. And the 2-, and early 2000s in reverse, we were getting too much for our money, and now where capped packages are shrinking, and people are getting upset by, by, by shrink-flation. But with, with shrink-flation, I don't really see an issue with that at all.
Michael LeBlanc
Right. I guess it's interesting how it factors in and what you say about, you know, notwithstanding what you say about the StatsCAN data, your report has been relentlessly accurate.
Sylvain Charlebois
Yes.
Michael LeBlanc
You know, the models behind it seem to take, ingest data and do the magic. So, it'll be super interesting to see what happens with the Nielsen data. I'm sure you're looking forward to seeing how that gets ingested. And what changes come out. And I'm not surprised somebody in Stockholm would have heard about the report, you had so much publicity for it. Yeah. What do you say like, hundreds and hundreds of thousands impressions around the world, so.
Sylvain Charlebois
Yeah, the market reach for the report, every given year, it reaches about 100 million people, which is, which is a lot. So yeah, so and I suspect that this year won't be an exception, where we actually give interviews about food prices all year round, this year was particularly, has been particularly busy.
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois
A lot of people are concerned and, and prices are going up.
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois
And the one thing I try to explain to people about food inflation is that it's not, it's not necessarily a game of averages. When we say 5%, some people may say, "Well, 5%, who cares not that much?" Well, it's, it's not, it's not about averages. 5% is the average. But if you're if you're if you go to the meat counter, and you're a fan of Sirloin steak or something, it's not, you're not going to see 5% you're going to see 12 or 13 or 15%.
Michael LeBlanc
Right.
Sylvain Charlebois
And peanut butter has gone up this year too. So that's, that's going to upset a lot of people for the first time in 20 years. So, you can see that really COVID and
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois
macro economic factors have impacted the entire grocery store. So there's no safe place for, for consumers right now.
Michael LeBlanc
There's a great headline in the New York Times today, because the US economy is on fire, you know, growth beyond but there's inflation creeping in. And now some of that inflation is creeping in because people are actually going back and traveling and hotel rooms. I was looking at Safety Analysis and you know, hotel room in New York was 150 bucks. Well, now it's back up to 400 more normal rate. So that factors into inflation, right that people are doing, they're more normalized, but they said "is the economy on fire, good?" And "is there inflation?" The answer to both is yes. So, we're going to go through this kind of recovery. It's going to be choppy, I think it feels unfortunately, a little more choppy in the US. Southern US is really struggling. You know,
Sylvain Charlebois
My biggest concern Michael is, is labor. I mean.
Michael LeBlanc
Hard to find, expensive, yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois
My wife and I just booked a hotel room in Quebec City last week. And prices were very, were very similar to, to the pre-COVID era. But, when we actually arrive at the hotel, so we said, we want to rent a nice room in a nice hotel in Quebec but it was sold out. And when I said to the, to the person, "Well, I, we wanted to say at the other hotel, but it was sold out." and he said, "Well, it wasn't sold out". It's just they block 70% of all rooms because they don't have anybody to clean them.
Michael LeBlanc
Well, it's a great episode so far. Let's get to our interview with Diane J. Brisebois, President and CEO of Retail Council of Canada. She's going to talk all about, a little bit more about the organization but a lot about the code of conduct. So, let's have a listen.
Sylvain Charlebois
The food space is is, of course a big piece of the economy, how much time do you devote to food in general versus other sectors within retail
Diane J. Brisebois
50% of our time.
Sylvain Charlebois
Wow.
Diane J. Brisebois
And that's, not stop. This doesn't mean that one retailer, or retail segment is more important than another. It's also, it's a reflection of how regulated the sector is. And so, it's affected more by what governments do. And so you think about all the food safety regulations, and, and the likes. And so it's we are spending more time or a larger portion of time within that sector simply because of the complexity of the business. And the, the amount of regulations that grocers deal with and have to manage. Many of those are provincial, as you know, and territorial, not federal. So, there are layers and layers. So, there's, there's no question that staff right across the country spent an enormous amount of time on, on, on issues that affect Food and Pharma.
Sylvain Charlebois
So you've been involved with RCC for, for more than, than two decades? What are some of the things that have changed the most since you've been involved with RCC, from in the grocery business?
Diane J. Brisebois
Well, there's several things but
Sylvain Charlebois
Well food safety's an obvious one for sure. Because food safety is something I follow very close, in every, every other day, every other week, there's always, there's always something going on there.
Michael LeBlanc
Sure.
Diane J. Brisebois
If I look at the major changes, then if, not just in food, but food stands out. Obviously, grocery stands out. But looking at the Retail sector general, what's changed the most is, how, is technology and how technology and the advancement of technology, how that's enable retailers to be more efficient, more creative, more innovative, and, and faster to market. So there's no question that has been, you know, earth shattering, so to speak, what you've seen over the many decades, not just in food, I know there's been a lot of focus on food. But we've seen that in other sectors, as Michael knows, a lot of consolidation. Also, a lot of competition from outside the country. And finally, you know, what's changed the most and will continue to trans-, transform. All of retail is ecommerce. And, and I think that we all know how that has sped up during the pandemic, both from a, you know, consumer shopping habit, but also from an investment perspective with retailers that, you know, food stands out. But as I, as I mentioned, it's not the only sector, I mean, that has really transformed retailer’s businesses. And that's the one single thing I can think of that has had a direct impact on every type of retailer, in every region, in every size.
Sylvain Charlebois
No, fair enough.
Sylvain Charlebois
So you did talk about consolidation in the grocery business. Let's, let's talk about the big elephant-in-the-room, the Code of Conduct, I'm sure it's your favorite topic.
Diane J. Brisebois
Why don't we talk about that someday. I have a bone to pick with you on that issue. So, I'm so happy it’s going to be next.
Sylvain Charlebois
And that's why I invited you because I think it's important to give a voice to RCC to you as well, you're, you're a great leader, you're I think you're the most influential leader in retail in Canada right now. And some of the work you've done with the Code of Conduct is, has been very constructive. And so yeah, I certainly want to get your point of view on on what's going on right now. And you and your group, you ,you lead a group, you came forward with a, with a model for the working group at the federal level, which suggested that, that perhaps we should think about a code focusing on self-regulation versus getting the government involved. So, I just want to get your, your, your perspective on, on the model you presented.
Diane J. Brisebois
Yeah, so just for clarity, the, you know, my thank you for a nice compliment about RCC, but I in this case, we cannot take credit for this. This is really a group that came together, together organically, I think you and I still may have talked about that a bit,
Sylvain Charlebois
Yeah.
Diane J. Brisebois
which is when the FHCP. And Sobeys code was, released it, there were already conversations in, in the industry about best practices or code of conduct, whatever we want to call it. But this galvanized different sectors of the food supply chain. And we, as an association, that, always been fairly clear that we were not against best practices. But we were very concerned around a regulatory framework. And I'll explain in a moment, but saying that, we started getting calls from different associations, that includes Food and Beverage Canada, SETAC, and AGA in Quebec, the CPMA, which is the Canadian Produce Marketing Association, and CFIG, which is Independent Grocers.
Diane J. Brisebois
And we realized that we were all kind of talking. And then we said, "Well, why don't we come together, set up the video conference call and talk about it and see where, you know, what are the concerns of the different groups", and we realize that these six organizations had something in common that we believe that there should be a Canadian Food Industry Code of Practice, but it that it should be developed by industry and for industry. And that we believe that while you know the UK code existed, and other codes existed, that Canada was unique, and that we needed to respect that. So, we then decided to have further conversation. And then we decided to call ourselves the Alliance. And so, the Alliance was formed very organically. While we recognized that others had done a lot of work on this file. As noted, we wanted to help shape the discourse. And we wanted to also make sure that it was more collaborative. And the other area of concern that everyone had voiced, even those who weren't part of the Alliance, but we were hearing from was that there needed, it needed to be reciprocal. So, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, so to speak. And then the last one, which is the elephant-in-the-room, which is, you know, should it be regulated or not. And, again, a survey, I'll be really clear, we don't want a code to be regulated. And the reason for that is the power to regulate, it rests with the provinces. And so, and we believe that there shouldn't just be one Code of Practice throughout the country, Pan-Canadian, administered uniformly to ensure consistency.
Diane J. Brisebois
The alternative presents the possibility of so many different codes across jurisdictions, that codes that may very well change over time. So the, which we've seen with many other types of regulations that were supposed to be harmonized, and never were, which becomes of great concern. Look, at the end of the day, the job of most industry associations is to try to reduce red tape, reduce costs, and reduce inefficiencies. And so we thought, is there a mousetrap? And the difference between what we've put forward is that we, we haven't proposed a specific code yet. We've proposed a process to get to our code. And you know, a lot of people said, well, there's no such thing as an unregulated code. Well, there are industry codes that exist, that are not regulated, yet they are mandatory, and they're enforceable. One of these is the Fruit and Vegetable Dispute Resolution Corporation, which better known as DRC. And there are other codes. And so there are examples that we can look at, that would ensure that there is meat to the bone, so to speak, I think that that's the most important thing. And I know, I've, you know, you know, you've had, you've said things in your blogs, and in some articles that have made my blood boil. Bless you, but one of these days, I think I'll be throwing eggs at you. But saying that, we'll make an omelet together.
Diane J. Brisebois
I think where you get it wrong today, is to believe that code cannot be enforced unless it's regulated. And, and there are examples to the contrary. You And I think at the end of the day, what all of us and we now are speaking to a much larger group of organizations, we started, you know, thinking about this, and saying, you know what, it's worth the effort, the food supply chain in Canada is too important for us not to invest our time together to find a solution, that's going to be good for everybody within the supply chain, we get where FHCP is coming from, we certainly recognize the amount of time and resources as Sobey's invested in this effort. And, and we appreciate it because it has shaped the discourse. But we do believe that we might be able to build a new mouse trap that gets us to where we all want to be.
Sylvain Charlebois
You know, I, it's true that I do have a position on this. And I was kind of forced to have a position because I was asked to testify or present to the working group. However, when I heard that your group was coming up with a, with a model, I was actually quite pleased. Just
Diane J. Brisebois
Were you?
Sylvain Charlebois
I was Yes, absolutely.
Diane J. Brisebois
This is, this is on air. Now. I have a new name for you. I call you Hollywood Sylvain?
Sylvain Charlebois
No, but seriously I think your, your work was a recognition that something is wrong, and we need to work together. And at the end of the day it, to me, it doesn't matter what model we'll go with. I think what's important is to recognize that, that, that right now, the status quo is not acceptable. And then we need to work together. So and in fact, all of the people that are involved with your your model, your prop-, your proposal, it's a long list of organizations that that are now involved in this in this discussion that I think like 12 months ago, if you would have asked me if all of these groups would have been involved with this discussion was said you're crazy, but it did happen.
Diane J. Brisebois
Yeah, it did.
Sylvain Charlebois
I was I was very pleased with,
Diane J. Brisebois
You know, and I, and I think, to the credit of those who, you know, put pen to paper. And let's be clear here Sylvain, when we talk about a collaborative approach. This includes all of the major players. So obviously, you know, those, we want to ensure that FHCP, is that the table, the major grocers are at the table. And all of the major players within the supply chain, will it be easy? No. But we are committed, I can tell you we are on calls every week with the Alliance members and others now. And we're going okay, "How do we make sure that we really do get there? How do we work this out?" because it's a huge, as you know, it's a huge and complex supply chain.
Diane J. Brisebois
And, you know, we also want to make sure this is not a process where you throw all your grievances on the table, we're going to need to scope this and be clear about what we are trying to resolve, and then focus on that. But saying that, I think we're getting a lot of positive feedback, because this is, in an odd way, this is bringing everybody together to address issues of concern. And I think all of us, as, as well as you and others. I mean, in fact, the entire retail industry is better served, if we have also very strong food supply chain and food industry in Canada. So, you know, I'm encouraged. It's, it's challenging, it can get, you know, dicey at times, but we've decided, let's put all our efforts pushing the bar up, remaining positive and constructive and collaborative. And, and focused on the end goal. And we believe that by doing that the Alliance believes that by doing that, that we're going to be able to find the right mouse trap to fix it.
Sylvain Charlebois
My, my, my biggest concern and I shared my point with, with Michael, in another episode, it's it's how a self-regulated model would be perceived by the Canadian public, especially if a model involves pricing. I know that in, in on Twitter and on social media, a lot of Canadians have already expressed concerns about, you know, whether or not is going to work, whether or not this will support more collusion going back to what happened with the bread price fixing scheme. I mean, a lot of people are concerned about that. What, what would you say, how would you respond to, to critics related to potential collusion in the industry?
Diane J. Brisebois
Well, I would respond by saying that this, in fact, the process that the Alliance is putting forward is, in fact going to be extremely beneficial for everyone. That includes consumers, that includes the different players within the food supply chain. And that includes governments as well. The, you know, we, by bringing all of these players together, you already begin by admitting that everyone is equal, and that everyone is important within the supply chain. And at the end of the day, all the conversations the Alliance members have had with other stakeholders has been about how do we ensure we can be a we can continue to feed Canadians that we can continue to provide the best products, produce, the best assortment, at the most competitive prices. And throughout this process to bang, the competition, Bureau, governments and all other key stakeholders will be involved. Because the point is to make us better. And if we make us better, as a supply chain, it is ultimately to the benefit and for the benefit of consumers. And that's what will drive the process.
Diane J. Brisebois
So, there's, in fact, this is less. This is the fact that the basic principle of the Alliance is collaboration. And because of that, we are avoiding any suggestion that there could be collusion, that could be a small group, making decisions for a large group. I mean, that's the whole point of the Alliance. Let's bring everybody together, every voice counts. And at the end of the day, let's be, let's make it more efficient, and let's be proud of the food supply chain in Canada. And let's support it. Because you know, there's one thing I will say that I total agree with Michael Graydon, when he's talked about government needing to invest in our food supply chain, and ensure that we're, we're supporting local growers, producers, processors, as well as multinationals. We want these investments in Canada, we want our grocery retailers to be competitive, to provide, you know, competitive assortments and goods and services to our consumers. I mean that is key. The Alliance believes in that. So because of those principles, we think it's a win-win.
Michael LeBlanc
It's been a great discussion as, as I've listened to because I've participated or listened to both sides of the argument throughout. And let's, let's talk, let's wrap up with a big question. And not perhaps as big as a Code of Conduct. But Diane, if your, if you and I and Sylvain were sitting and having a beverage 2, 3, 5 years from today, what would be different about retail?
Michael LeBlanc
You talked earlier in our interview about the tremendous technological changes that have happened in your time in the sector, regulatory changes, but as you think, you know, past the COVID era, which brought its own unique challenges, perhaps brought some change. What do you think is going to, retail is going to, you know, what's the defining characteristic of retail? What its stores look like? What do grocery stores look like? What do you, what are the members telling you? And, and what are you hearing from them? And what are your own thoughts after being a participant for over, As Sylvain said, you know, 25 plus years, but what do you, what do you, what do you think is in in the future for the, for the grocery sector and retail?
Diane J. Brisebois
I'll get, that, that's the million-dollar question, isn't it? Michael?
Diane J. Brisebois
This is an industry that constantly, certainly in the last couple of decades, and, and, and even more, in the last couple of years that is constantly transforming itself and is innovating. What I think will change the most is the speed of innovation. I have never seen, a, so much investment in innovation. And that's not just technology that's in even human resources. That's in store design. That's in customer service, loyalty programs, Omnichannel. It is literally transforming itself at the speed of light, which is never I've never seen that before. I cannot tell you what exactly it will look like two three years from now. But I can tell you that it will. It will be very exciting. They'll be moving quickly, at the end of the day as the three of us know. It's the retailers who will stand out, who will be able to provide the most exciting experience to their customers are those who are so close to the customer, that they're breathing the same air. And that, that will be key, you. So you'll see, you know, you, you will continue to see a lot of investment in understanding consumer behavior in predicting consumer behavior and exciting consumers, I think the other thing that you might see, over and above, the rapid pace of innovation and investment, is you're going to see a lot of very creative development within the brick-and-mortar store environment, as consumers of all ages have become very much digital natives, post pandemic. And so it's that convergence in the omnichannel world, you know, that, that incredible experience. And I know that a lot of retailers, big and small, are very much focused on that seamless, but yet specific experience in, in the different ways consumers, shop with you, and the touch points. And I think that there will be, you know, there'll be a lot of creativity. And again, using that word, a lot of innovation, that and I think stores will become very much showcases. And we'll, we'll be using a lot of new technologies to excite customers to inform customers to interact with customers. So more to come. I mean, you know, look, I'm being very general, because it's a moving target. And that's,
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah. it's hard to figure out what stores are going to look like in three months from now.
Diane J. Brisebois
Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc
So it's a bit, a bit of an unfair question.
Diane J. Brisebois
But, you know, the fa-, that the one thing that, that you can take to the bank is that retail is in constant, constant flux. And I don't mean that negatively, I mean, that positively.
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah.
Diane J. Brisebois
And I think the pandemic, as taught and forced some retailers to be, to be, able to turn on a dime, which is extremely important as we move towards a post-pandemic world. And so, it's speed, agility, and innovation, I think, is what will drive retail.
Michael LeBlanc
You indicated and talked about thought leadership. So last question, where can the listeners go to learn more about RCC are the products and thought leadership that you publish? And, and I think you've got, I think you've got a conference coming up in September that people should know about and, and attend. So talk a little bit about that.
Diane J. Brisebois
I would always encourage everybody to go the RetailCouncil.org website. Much of the information is on the public side of the site, in regards to best practices, and the likes. But from a thought leadership perspective, Michael, we, we provide a lot of white papers, a lot of research, and also key webinars and conferences, as well as podcasts. And the big one is the store conference, which is going to be held over a four-day period. And it will be virtual. And it brings experts from a retail and from other fields from around the world, talking about what's important to retailers. And so that's one that you can't miss, you can pick and choose, you can register for the entire program.
Diane J. Brisebois
And we're dealing with every aspect of retail, both by segment and by operational topic. And then we've got you know, marketing conferences, we also have a holiday shopping conference and webinars. My, you know, I, my message to retailers, I think this, is if there's one thing they've learned, throughout the pandemic, is they've realized that often they, they were more isolated than they thought they were. They've reached out, reached out a lot more during the pandemic to share, to learn, to benchmark. And my hope is that they continue doing that. And obviously, our goal is to be able to provide them with as many assets as possible, to allow them to look at what's happening around them not just within their sub sector, and to learn from the best, both in Canada and around the world.
Sylvain Charlebois
And obviously I want to thank you for joining us today. I know you have a busy, busy schedule. So I was very pleased that you, you accepted our invitation. Like I said earlier, I think you're a great influence. You're, I think you're the most influential person in Retail in Canada right now. And we're very fortunate to have you joined our podcasts today.
Sylvain Charlebois
Yeah. So best of luck to you. And hopefully this pandemic will come to an end soon. So you can take some time off a little bit.
Diane J. Brisebois
Thank you to both. And as I said, mow, I've coined you Hollywood Sylvain. That's what I'm going to call you. Be kind be fair.
Diane J. Brisebois
And Michael, always a pleasure. You're a great friend, a great colleague, and I appreciate everything that both of you are doing through this podcast. And I look forward to working with both of you in the future.
Michael LeBlanc
All right, thanks, Diane. And thanks for your kind words, and, and I'd echo Sylvain’s compliments. You know, through these difficult times, I can't imagine the retail industry having a better leader to represent and defend and advocate and do all the things that you've had to do and needed to do. And you can do so thanks for that. And thanks again for joining us on The Food Professor Podcast.
Diane J. Brisebois
Thank you, very generous, very kind.
Diane J. Brisebois
Looking forward to seeing you both in person soon.
Michael LeBlanc
I looking at this new made in Alberta by Albertans. With Albertan parents, who our forefathers came from Alberta brand. Why is this even news, that they're launching a program about made in Alberta by Albertans? This seems like a great initiative to do.
Sylvain Charlebois
You have no idea why it's news. Really?
Michael LeBlanc
Well no, why is it news?
Sylvain Charlebois
Albertans have had, a, an awkward relationship with the buy-local movements. I mean, when you look at the economy, even Saskatchewan has the same relationship with the buy local movement. Because when you think about the agri-economy, it's all about exports. When you think about buy-local in the prairie, they often think about protectionism and saying, well, food sovereignty is not something that can work for us. And because we feed the world. So why, why should we be asking Albertans to support farmers, when most of our farmers are actually exporting products all over the world doesn't make any sense?
Sylvain Charlebois
Well, now the province is facing the reality that the oil industry is, is, is going to shrink, and they have to build the economies in some other way. So and they're seeing they're looking at agri-food as a really potent way to grow the economy.
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois
And it's hard to grow their own economy if you don't get the support of consumers. And it's not just about, I don't think it's about selling food. It's about pride. It's about actually, it's about inviting Albertans to know what the hell's going on in the province in the first place. Because most Albertans wouldn't even know what's being grown in Alberta. It's all about supporting the economy. So I actually think it's a great thing. And like I said, I think the buy local movement has evolved into something else. But a decade or two ago, it was all about food sovereignty that support our farmers, let's actually try to think of, of the buy-local movement as something that would operate within this system with closed borders or something like that.
Sylvain Charlebois
Now, it's much more, the concept is much more open than that. And so I think, I think the fact that Alberta is launching and buy-local program points to the fact that the concept, the buy local movement has matured and evolve over time. And to me, it was an indication that something is happening in Alberta. I think this is, so, we're seeing a government, a conservative government really asking people to buy local, is not a move won't be seen as a protectionist move, I guess, against imported products.
Michael LeBlanc
Let's end off with this little bit of news about Health Canada and pesticides, that they're talking about allowing more glyco-fate, do I have that word right?
Sylvain Charlebois
Glyphosate,
Michael LeBlanc
glyphosate
Sylvain Charlebois
glyphosate.
Michael LeBlanc
glyphosate in foods. Now, there seems to, not surprisingly
Sylvain Charlebois
It’s banned in many cities, but Health Canada has other plans for farmers.
Michael LeBlanc
There seems to be no, you know, like many of these issues, two sides of two sides of the table of some of the farmers are saying it's fine. Others are saying that's not a great thing. What's your perspective on, on the broader issue?
Sylvain Charlebois
Well, I mean, I think city dwellers under appreciate the risk that many that farmers have to deal with. It's complicated out there and they often look at their lawns the same way as they look at wheat fields and canola fields. I mean, it's not, it, stakes are different. I mean, completely different.
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois
And so I actually do trust Health Canada on this one. I think they're actually making the right move. Let's face it, our growing season is much shorter than other places around the world in order to make sure that our agriculture remains competitive. You want to make sure that farmers are tooled appropriately, and genetic engineering is a thing. It's something that really will play a huge role because of climate change for farmers. I mean, we need more research,
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois
We need more genetic engineering and with that comes a portfolio of different products like herbicides and fungicides and, and chemicals that you need in order to, to increase yields. Alternatives are actually sometimes more poisonous than the, infamous, Roundup. And so I'm a little bit concerned by the lack of information that a lot of people have people will, people love to hate Roundup.
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois
Without really knowing why they just don't like Monsanto. They don't like Roundup, and they don't they, don't want it, they want it to be as far, they want to stay away from, from these products as much as possible. But when you look at human risk, and Health Canada has done a pretty good job evaluating human risks related to glyphosate. Risks are minimized. immensely, when, when used. The one thing I would note though, is that there is abuse. I mean, farmers tend to spray everything all the time. And, and with precision agriculture, you tend to be more responsible and spray more strategically where, where it's needed. And I think more and more farmers are starting to do that.
Michael LeBlanc
And you would think so because the economics just you know, how much Roundup.
Sylvain Charlebois
And they'll save money too. Yeah, absolutely.
Michael LeBlanc
Right. I mean, there seems to be an economic incentive to use less of anything like that, just from a, you know, how much [inaudible]
Sylvain Charlebois
The other thing I will note though, and so we need to be careful with how we deal with glyphosate is that environmental risks are still somewhat unknown, unlike human risks.
Sylvain Charlebois
So, it's not cancerous. In fact, in June, Europe actually has published, Europe of all places, has published a report stating that glyphosate is not cancerous, unlike other products that we've seen other reports that we've seen in North America and which led to this confusion, and that's why people, a lot of people are concerned and are afraid of glyphosate. Now, the environmental risk, we still have a lot of work to do in terms of evaluating environmental risks related to glyphosate. That's the one thing I would note, healthcare, its endorsement has nothing to do with the environment.
Michael LeBlanc
From that side
Syllvain Charlebois
Yeah,
Michael LeBlanc
With that side, yeah, I mean, it reminds me of the DDT, right.
Sylvain Charlebois
Yeah. Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc
I mean, DDT was outlawed, because it was, the, amongst other things, sending out eggs of owls or hawks or something. I mean, it was more of the environmental.
Sylvain Charlebois
So it's a win for our, for, for farmers, but it's not like an outright win. So,
Michael LeBlanc
It's a long, it's a long one.
Sylvain Charlebois
yeah, and frankly, with everything, with Health Canada, or environmental, Environment Canada, they'll continue to evaluate the situation, because the technologies used by farmers are going to change as a result of climate change, as a result of research. So, you constantly have to evaluate risks all the time. So yeah, consultations are over, as of July 20, but not the research.
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah. Interesting. That is so interesting. And with that, let's wrap it up.
Michael LeBlanc
If you liked this episode, you can follow us on Apple, iTunes, Spotify, your favorite podcast platform, please rate and review and be sure to recommend to a friend or colleague in the Grocery, Food Service or Restaurant industry.
Michael LeBlanc
I'm Michael LeBlanc, producer and host of the all new Conversations with CommerceNext podcast, a bunch of other stuff,
Sylvain Charlebois
and I'm Sylvain Charlebois.
Michael LeBlanc
We'll be back again in the fall with a great interview with, with a Senior Executive from Metro, who provides us a fantastic overview and lots more to come for the rest of the year. So have a great summer. Bonus episodes, still coming up, and we'll see you in the Fall.
Michael LeBlanc
Thank you.
Sylvain Charlebois
I'll see you in the Fall.
Michael LeBlanc
All right.
Michael LeBlanc
Bye bye.
Sylvain Charlebois
Bye bye.