We have two exceptional guests on this final live episode of Season 4. First, we welcome Victor Thomas, President and CEO of the Canada-India Business Council. This not-for-profit organization aims to strengthen the economic ties between Canada and India by promoting bilateral investment and trade. Next, Colleen Martin from Caddle joins us with exclusive research found only here on The Food Professor podcast. We talk to nearly 10,000 Canadians about their perceptions of cashiers sitting versus standing at grocery checkouts. In the news, we discuss William Shatner's profanity-laden commercial produced by Ryan Reynolds' Vancouver agency, which calls for an end to open pen salmon fishing. We also cover the latest inflation data for May, our upcoming Global Agri-Food Power Index project with MNP, and the Capital Gains showdown. Plus, we touch on summertime politics and the quirky Tim Horton's Musical.
We have two exceptional guests on this final live episode of Season 4.
First, we welcome Victor Thomas, President and CEO of the Canada-India Business Council. This not-for-profit organization aims to strengthen the economic ties between Canada and India by promoting bilateral investment and trade. We delve into the vast opportunities for Canadian agriculture to help feed India's enormous and complex nation and discuss the political and regulatory considerations involved in large-scale trade. Interestingly, Victor is a former student of Sylvain's!
Next, Colleen Martin from Caddle joins us with exclusive research found only here on The Food Professor podcast. We talk to nearly 10,000 Canadians about their perceptions of cashiers sitting versus standing at grocery checkouts. Having just returned from Europe—the land of seated cashiers—Sylvain shares his thoughts on this cultural difference.
In the news, we discuss William Shatner's profanity-laden commercial produced by Ryan Reynolds' Vancouver agency, which calls for an end to open pen salmon fishing. We also cover the latest inflation data for May, our upcoming Global Agri-Food Power Index project with MNP, and the Capital Gains showdown. Plus, we touch on summertime politics and the quirky Tim Horton's Musical.
Though this is our last live episode, stay tuned throughout the summer for a series of live interviews from SIAL every Thursday with fascinating figures in food and agriculture. Season 5 kicks off in late August.
Links mentioned in the show:
https://the-food-professor.simplecast.com/episodes/special-encore-interview-episode-guests-isaiah-robinson-kitasoo-xaixais-nation-stephanie-columbo-canada-research-chair-in-aquaculture-tim-kennedy-canadian-aquaculture-industry-alliance
https://www.timhortons.ca/60
https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/video/9.6433107
https://youtu.be/DMtI2rtiQ-Q?si=QsOYt4ColaRaqMcz
About Victor
Victor Thomas is the President and CEO of the Canada-India Business Council — a not-for-profit working to strengthen the Canada-India economic corridor by promoting bilateral investment and trade. He is also Chair of Precision AI, an AgTech company striving for sustainable farming practices in the autonomous farming revolution, and Chair of Marval Capital's Investment Advisory Counsel, which invests in India's leading small and mid-cap publicly listed companies. He is a director emeritus of the Rideau Hall Foundation Board of Directors and a National Executive Member of the 2026 Governor General's Canadian Leadership Conference.
Michael LeBlanc 00:05
Welcome to The Food Professor podcast, presented by Caddle, season 4, our last live, you and me, episode of the season. I'm Michael LeBlanc.
Sylvain Charlebois 00:13
And I'm The Food Professor Sylvain Charlebois.
Michael LeBlanc 00:17
Our special guests, plural, this week are first of all, Victor Thomas, President and CEO of Canada-India Business Council, a not for profit working to strengthen the Canadian-, or Canada-India economic corridor promoting bilateral investment and trade.
We talk about the nature and scale of the opportunity for Canadian agriculture and feeding that enormous and complicated nation. The political regulatory considerations surrounding trade with India at scale, I believe, you know or knew Victor, right?
Sylvain Charlebois 00:46
Oh, yeah. From Saskatchewan.
Michael LeBlanc 00:49
He was a student, right?
Sylvain Charlebois 00:51
Great student, great student of life. He's been involved with the business community for forever and I think he was actually President of the Chamber of Commerce for, for a while under the age of 30, by the way, yeah, very, very influential. Love him. I see him all the time at airports and frankly, I mean, the last time I saw him, I think it was in Calgary. I told him, ‘Listen, I have a podcast I need to talk about India, because I think India is an important partner for Canada’. So, he accepted and here we are.
Sylvain Charlebois 01:25
I, honestly, have zero opinion on this. You-, I just-, I just find it a fascinating debate and you actually raised the point a few weeks ago and I thought it was actually a very interesting question, but personally like me, I don't care. I do not care.
Michael LeBlanc 01:25
Also joining us with proprietary, found only here on The Food Professor podcast, research, we're talking to almost 10,000 Canadians, thanks to Caddle, about their perceptions of cashiers and associates who sit down at grocery checkout, instead of standing to serve them. Colleen Martin will be joining us from Caddle. Sylvain you just returned from Europe, land of the seated cashier. When you see cashiers sitting down, does it strike you as unusual or odd or do you have any feelings, like, do you-, do you-, what are the feels for you when you-, when you see that? I remember when I first saw it, I thought, wow, that's unusual. Like it just struck me as wow, I've never seen anything like it. So, we just wanted to dip into it a bit.
Michael LeBlanc 02:24
Yeah, we'll hear more about that, and we'll hear what Canadians think.
Sylvain Charlebois 02:26
Actually, you know, what I would do if I were manager of a store, I would play my musical chair, I would go run a song, and then cashiers stop, music stops, they sit down. There you go. That's your day right there.
Michael LeBlanc 02:40
Your life as an operator would be very short. Let me just get that way. Get this guy out of here. Now for a reminder to our listeners. This is our last live, you and me, episode, but we have a plethora of interviews that you and I did live in person at SIAL in Montreal with some of the most interesting people in food and agriculture. Stay tuned right to the summer each and every Thursday as usual and then season five will kick off in late August. A little bit earlier than last year. We're getting going a bit early. We've already started talking to people who are going to be on the pod, it's going to be a fantastic season. So, stay tuned in and-,
Sylvain Charlebois 03:13
Number five. Wow.
Michael LeBlanc 03:15
Number five.
Sylvain Charlebois 03:15
We're gonna have a new logo and new jingle, aren't we?
Michael LeBlanc 03:19
We are working on some new stuff, for sure.
Sylvain Charlebois 03:21
Oh, yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 03:22
Freshen it up a little bit.
Sylvain Charlebois 03:23
Are you going to shave your beard? I'm just throwing it out there.
Michael LeBlanc 03:26
No, no, no, no.
Sylvain Charlebois 03:27
It looks good on you.
Michael LeBlanc 03:29
Thank you. All right. Well, let's get into the news. Let's-, let's start where we must William Shatner's profanity laden commercial. Produced by Vancouver's Ryan Reynolds digital agency calling for the end to open pen salmon fishing on the coast. Let's-, let's have a listen to a few excerpts from that-, from that ad.
William Shatner 03:49
I've received your orders. My orders will be charged.
Michael LeBlanc 04:03
That's right. That was a few excerpts from the ad that has been running on social media calling for the end of and the government listened. So, you've got an op-ed about this. This is not the first time we've visited this. So, we've had Isaiah Robertson on-, on the pod before we've also had your colleague, Stephanie Colombo, who's a global expert in agriculture. We've had them both on the pod before so I'll put a link into that and we've talked about this issue because there was kind of a moratorium and then now the decision has-, has come down and you know, for whatever reason the government does the crazy things they do they make this announcement on kind of an important day to indigenous people. Completely ignoring the fact that-
Sylvain Charlebois 04:44
June 21st, yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 04:47
I don't know. So, context,
Sylvain Charlebois 04:48
And then they actually made the announcement in Vancouver not even close to communities, which was another perceived insult.
Michael LeBlanc 04:55
You'd think they'd have comms. You think they have comms people advising them on stuff like this, but maybe the-, maybe the work from home is settling in and they just don't have comps people anymore to say, you know, if we're going to make this decision, here's what I would do instead of doing what you're about to do. Alright, so it's-
Sylvain Charlebois 05:10
I mean, typically, I mean, I'm expecting good comms from the government to be honest, because they've been good at it. They've been good at communications the last several years. So, I thought it was a huge miss. An unfortunate and surprising miss.
Michael LeBlanc 05:24
Well, it's just divisive, right, and in what is a fairly polarizing issue now, to the audience, we did reach out or you did reach out to the David Suzuki Foundation, because they were big advocates of this ban, because we wanted to hear from-, from them as well. Now, we didn't give them a lot of time. I mean, that was kind of last week. So hopefully, we'll get someone on.
Sylvain Charlebois 05:41
Well, they didn't even respond.
Michael LeBlanc 05:43
Well. Okay. Well, if you're listening to David Suzuki-
Sylvain Charlebois 05:47
And, and so I was, I was a bit surprised that they didn't respond, but I mean, it's one of those things, and they probably, they may have thought that we were setting up a trap for them.
Michael LeBlanc 05:59
No, no, I want to learn.
Sylvain Charlebois 06:00
We're all for debates.
Michael LeBlanc 06:02
No, no, we're, we're all about that. I mean, you know, I think there's a couple of things, let's touch on. We've talked about it a little bit, but it feels to me, like the industry and tell me if you think I'm close to the mark here is paying for sins of the past, like, you know, they have some horrifying picture of-
Sylvain Charlebois 06:20
That's a good way to put it.
Michael LeBlanc 06:21
You know, very cloudy, poo laden, lice infested kind of hands from wherever there is and, you know, talking to Isaiah, knowing what I know, talking to Stephanie, those things have been rectified. They're much better than they used to be.
Sylvain Charlebois 06:34
And coupled with very aggressive and effective strategy coming from environmental groups. I mean, they've been very effective and so when you see an actor like William Shatner, and another beloved actor, along with another beloved actor, Ryan Reynolds, who produced the video, that's when you know, that really public opinion is-, is against the industry and-, and so that's a sign and frankly, I think it will be an uphill battle for-, for the industry. There's still-, there's still time, because they're still like this summer-, which is why Isaiah and I wrote the op-ed to kind of say, Listen, you need to really consider many different things here.
Sylvain Charlebois 07:17
And you, you know, you've met, you've made a decision, a populous one, I would say, but it's important for the government to understand group security and environmental implications here, because our studies, the two studies that we published, clearly show that if you actually ban these farms, you're going to basically import more Salman because there are two land based farms right now in receivership in Canada, actually, at least one is in receivership, Sustainable Blue in Nova Scotia right here. That's the Cadillac, the Cadillac of salmon farming, I visited that facility. It's incredible, but they're under receivership because producing salmon on land is incredibly expensive and so the business case to actually move all the pens on land is incredibly weak. So that's why giving them five years is unreasonable. Sorry, go ahead.
Michael LeBlanc 08:18
No, no, I was just saying, I'm not sure it's a populace decision because if I, if I read, there's a lot of opinion against them and again, this may be a shadow of the past, but you know, it's-, it's, I don't know, you know, there seems to be some and this is why we wanted to get the David Suzuki foundation or somebody to give us that alt-, alt case, knowing what we know. Now-, now there's-, so there's a bunch of things to take into consideration. Today, the economics are one thing tomorrow, can you cast your mind for both as an agri expert and an economist and say, okay, if everybody's got to produce inland, the price to consumers is going to go up, and they won't have any other choices or will groceries just import from another country who's doing other practices because you could see if everybody is making the-, the inland salmon that-, you quoted some rates in the last episode that were significantly higher per kilo, but if everybody's doing it, it all goes up. But are you thinking that the grocers without regulation preventing it will just import farm salmon from Chile or somewhere?
Sylvain Charlebois 09:21
If you-, if you compare open Ben salmon versus land base, there's a difference of 40 to 60% retail. Okay, but my guess is that some of that salmon would go to export markets. So, you would import from Finland you would import for Norway or Chile, for example. So the carbon footprint of some of these products would, would obviously increase it's according to our study, you would basically add anywhere between 80,000 to 150,000 cars in the economy, just because you're buying salmon from elsewhere importing it, and of course, all depending of the Canadian dollar, what happens again, dollar, it may actually bring prices much higher, but the other issue, of course, to Isaiah is point in our op-ed. I mean, it really is an opportunity for indigenous communities to create jobs in rural in rural, remote areas and so to me, it was really unfortunate that they've come up with this decision, but at the end of the day, what's-, what's a little dishonest is to encourage open pen, open pens to transfer-, to transition into land base and that land base option is it financially-, is not financially viable.
Michael LeBlanc 10:38
Well, I guess until the government steps in with huge subsidies. Right, the government could subsidize, but then that's just our tax dollars just being spent a different way, right.
Sylvain Charlebois 10:47
Yeah, exactly and so, I don't know, I'm a bit concerned. To be honest, it's one-, one other decision that I think was-, was not properly thought through, but I think that Ottawa was severely influenced by very well-funded environmentalists, environmentalist groups, for sure, and did you see today actually, in the news, we, you sent me that link about the cod fishery situation in Newfoundland, yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 11:19
Right. It was gonna ask you about that. So-
Sylvain Charlebois 11:21
I gotta tell you, I mean, again, timing is everything and-, and when you actually look at some of the scientific data, the data still shows that inventories, cod inventories are still extremely, historically low.
Michael LeBlanc 11:36
You know, for the listeners, tell us what was announced today. So, the-, it's the opening of cod fishing that was shut down 2030 years ago, off the Newfoundland coast. Right. That's what you're referring to?
Sylvain Charlebois 11:46
Yeah, it was 32 years ago, I believe. So, there was a moratorium and so that all ended, and of course, it was devastating for many Newfoundland communities, but now they're making an announcement. They're rebooting the cod industry, I guess, in a limited way. It's-, we're not-, they're not just saying let's go out and fish as much as possible because they did recognize that inventories are quite low, but again, I don't know if it's the right decision, either. I-, you kind of-, you're forced to think this is-, this is political. This is about supporting this is about getting votes because at the end of the day, from the scientific perspective, I'm not sure it makes a whole lot of sense.
Michael LeBlanc 12:29
Well, what we could say is, this issue isn't over, I'd love to get some. If they're listening to this, maybe they're not listening to this, but some are opposing, I guess we call them opposing or the folks who are on the side of there's no good. Basically, they're saying there's no good way to raise salmon like this in open pens. So, I'd like to-, I'd like to hear more about that. So, let's hope we get somebody on for next season when we're back in the mic in August. Alright, let's-, let's move on.
Michael LeBlanc 12:57
Let's talk about inflation data for May. So, the numbers seem to be heating up inflation season, we know the numbers, so we-, so it was funny, because there's two headlines in the paper today. One was, you know, the Bank of Canada is saying, I think we're going to-, we're actually going to stick this soft landing and the other than looking at the data, which looks like inflation is still going which means we may not see another interest rate cut for the next month or until the fall or even later, what do you-, what are your prognostics?
Sylvain Charlebois 13:26
Well, GDP-, GDP numbers are coming out next week. So, we'll know-, we'll know more about what the Bank of Canada will likely do in July, at the end of July. But my guess is that I mean, yesterday's numbers were a little bit scary for the Bank of Canada, we're back up again. So, I mean, from a food perspective, we're up to 1.5, which is really the sweet spot you want to be there, but when you actually look at industrial prices, I was actually quite surprised to see some industrial prices go up by as much as 20%, especially in the meat counter. poultry, beef, veal, pork, chicken, all of these products have actually gone up in price.
Michael LeBlanc 14:09
And when you say industrial price, that's the-, what I call the wholesale price to grocers.
Sylvain Charlebois 14:14
That's right, grocers are-, what grocers are paying and frankly, I wish the media would give more would-, would bring more attention to those numbers, because I think a lot of Canadians do think that grocers just don't pay for the food that they sell. It just shows up and the food magically appears on shelves. I mean, that's not how it works. I mean, you want to tell Canadians, what's going on with grocers, how much they have to pay for their stuff that they're selling to us and you could see, this is a bit concerning to be honest, Michael, when you go-, when you look at wholesale prices, initial prices, there are several categories that are now on the rise month to month, not just year to year, month to month and when I say 18 to 20% That's from April to May.
Michael LeBlanc 15:02
Wow. Well, I mean, I mean, it feels like I mean, I know there's some commodities like cocoa and olive oil as being-, that are just 400% higher, just based on climate events and disease and whatever.
Sylvain Charlebois 15:14
Well, vegetable oil has calmed down, actually, in the last two months. Yeah, but they're still very high. I mean, obviously, but there are, there are signs that perhaps we could see prices rise. So we saw a dip earlier than expected. So, in April, March, April. May, we're still seeing an upswing. The other good news for grocers is that food sales are on the rise again, they actually increased, so food retail data came out last week, food sales are up 1.7% month to month, which is really welcome news for retailers.
Michael LeBlanc 15:26
Is that inflation adjusted or is that-
Sylvain Charlebois 15:55
That's adjusted, that's right.
Michael LeBlanc 15:56
So that takes into account inflation, that's true growth in other words.
Sylvain Charlebois 16:00
So that's good news for grocers because it's hard to actually make money when-, when the market stagnates but it appears as though the pie is starting to-, to grow again. So, GDP numbers, I think next week are critical and we'll see what happens for the month of July.
Michael LeBlanc 16:19
Let's talk about-, you've got a project on the go with MNP on designing a global Agri-Food Power Index, and I, you know, I'm very interested to learn more about these indexes, because I, there's a magazine, I read monocle magazine that does a soft power index and, you know, I do worry about Canada's place in the world and many, many things, I think it's coming to the surface over and over again, you know, there, you know, we could get kicked out of the G7 any day. I mean, our lack of payment, the 2% to GDP for NATO for example, you know, we're about to-, we're about to enter into negotiations with the US in terms of the free trade agreement and there's a whole bunch of things that we need to be on side with, I mean, you know, that's a $14 billion ticket that it's tough to run-, to win an election voting that though, I could see us spending all that money in the Arctic to protect our sovereignty in the Arctic, anyway.
Sylvain Charlebois 17:12
By the way, by the way, you didn't see this, but Canada is now the second largest buyer of food products coming from the US, surpassing China. So, number one is Mexico, number two is Canada. Number three is China. Now, China is not buying as much, which is why China went from number one to number three, but now we're number two. So-, which means that we're heavily reliant on the US to feed ourselves basically and so is that a good thing? I'm not sure. Dependency is never a good thing when-, especially when it comes to politics. So that's-, so that's one thing that concerns me and I agree with you. I-, I am concerned about Canada's place in the world, but this index, and it's really, it's a discussion I've had with MNP for a while and we came to an agreement about six months ago to set up this global index, to look at how nations are influential around the world and I thought it was a neat idea and the idea didn't come from me, the idea actually came from my team, and-
Michael LeBlanc 17:17
Sorry, who is MNP?
Sylvain Charlebois 18:22
MNP is the largest consulting firm in the agri food space in Canada. So, it's not the largest consulting firm, it's not part of the big four, but in agri food, that's the one. So, MNP would sponsor basically everything like SIAL, for example. Any event you go to, MNP is there, for sure.
Michael LeBlanc 18:44
So, talk about this power index, you're going to be releasing this fall.
Sylvain Charlebois 18:47
So basically. So, we're trying to agree on a series of metrics to measure the influence of different nations around the world and so we look at sustainability, we look at exports, we will look at imports, we look at labor, we look at R&D, we look at all sorts of things, we look at consumer trust, as well. The ability of nations to feed itself and-, and how that nation is actually maintaining, managing relationships with other nations around the world, not just on one continent, but around the world and so it's a fascinating exercise and so my hope is to release the study sometime in the fall.
Michael LeBlanc 19:31
Fantastic. Well, we'll get on the mic, and we'll talk all about it, that's fantastic.
Sylvain Charlebois 19:35
Absolutely.
Michael LeBlanc 19:36
All right. Well, let's take a quick break. Now let's hear from-, about our fascinating study with Colleen Martin from Caddle. Colleen, welcome back to The Food Professor podcast. How are you?
Colleen Martin 19:49
Hello, hello. I'm doing great, thank you guys.
Sylvain Charlebois 19:51
Hey Colleen.
Michael LeBlanc 19:52
So, Sylvain and I had this both of us were in Europe, this past, within the past couple of weeks and we had the same observation and we're asking, you know what amazing things can we find out from-, from Caddle and, and Canadians and one of the things that has always struck me as unusual. It struck me as very unusual the first time I saw it was cashiers in grocery stores sitting down. When I first saw it-
Sylvain Charlebois 20:16
Most of them, most of them.
Michael LeBlanc 20:17
No, yeah, not all not, not. Not everyone.
Colleen Martin 20:19
I've never seen that, to be honest guys.
Sylvain Charlebois 20:21
In Europe?
Michael LeBlanc 20:22
In Europe? Wow.
Colleen Martin 20:23
You're rubbing it in. I was not in Europe while you were making these observations and I've never seen anyone sitting in Canada,
Sylvain Charlebois 20:30
Knowing Canada, that's exactly why we had this. Michael and I, yeah.
Colleen Martin 20:35
I was in university and a part-time job of mine was being a cashier at a Food Basics and in fact, when I wanted to sit and you know, take some pressure off the old knees, I was encouraged not to.
Sylvain Charlebois 20:47
Really, discouraged or forced to?
Michael LeBlanc 20:49
You're almost, you're reprimanded or reminded.
Colleen Martin 20:52
Pretty much.
Michael LeBlanc 20:53
Yeah, so-, so that got us thinking, because that's kind of intriguing to me. So, on the sense of things, you know, if you've got an older if-, it's harder to find associates, if maybe some of your associates aren't young teenagers, who can stand forever at a Taylor Swift concert. Wouldn't-, you know, other than, like, accommodation, as the technical term would be, what's up with, why don't we have more cashiers sitting down? Wouldn't that and you know, grow the pool of people who could do the job for longer and, and be more comfortable, our going in hypothesis was that Canadians would view I guess, North Americans, Canadians, particularly would view cashews sitting down as somehow less engaged or lazy, or I don't know.
Sylvain Charlebois 21:37
That is your hypothesis, by the way, Michael, not our hypothesis.
Michael LeBlanc 21:41
What was your hypothesis, what was your hypothesis going in?
Sylvain Charlebois 21:45
I actually had no-, I had no opinion. I just thought it was more about comfort for the-, the employee. I mean, whether-, giving a choice to employees, whether or not to sit down and I-, and frankly, you've thought about this, Michael, I've never really thought about this until you asked, and I thought, well, if people want to sit down as a cashier in Canada, they just sit down. That's it and but-, but to your point, Michael, I think culturally, and from a customer service perspective, I and-, and frankly, with Colleen's experience, I guess it is sort of enforced as an unwritten policy affecting the entire industry.
Michael LeBlanc 22:26
So, we wanted to look into it. So, Colleen, we asked a bunch, we asked you to ask a bunch of people. So, take us through how many people you talk to, I think it was close to 10,000. So, this is to say the least a great sample and let's start, tell us-
Sylvain Charlebois 22:41
I guess they were all sitting down.
Michael LeBlanc 22:43
They may have been on that mobile device of yours, it could have been anywhere it could have been on the subway the way they answer, it's fantastic.
Sylvain Charlebois 22:48
That's true.
Michael LeBlanc 22:50
So, take us through at a high level, you know, what's the N, what's the population of people answered and then start taking us through the results of our survey and the questions.
Colleen Martin 22:57
Will do, first of all, I want to fact check you on that Taylor Swift comment, that is full zone 2 what those ladies are doing that audience, they are not standing, they are jumping and running on the spot, they are getting 180 Minus their age heartbeat going, I love to see it.
Sylvain Charlebois 23:12
And that's a comment coming from a triathlete. By the way, that's true.
Colleen Martin 23:15
Zone 2, everyone knows what zone 2 is these days. Everyone knows Peter Attia and the Outlive Book, if they don't, look it up. So, we did ask, I was very fascinated with this topic because of my experience as a cashier. We asked 9243 people last week, while you guys were ripping it up in Europe and the first question we asked was, how frequently do you shop at the grocery stores just to understand, you know, how often people are seeing cashiers and we-, we saw overwhelmingly that 72.8% of Canadians are in the stores weekly, 10% daily, which is high in my opinion and like what I thought it was going in and then 10-, another 10% every couple or few weeks.
Michael LeBlanc 23:55
So, lots-, lots of people and lots of opportunity to observe and interact. This isn't-, this isn't a rare occasion by any stretch, so yeah that validate-
Colleen Martin 24:03
That said when you're in there, are you really looking at what the cashiers are doing, I'm not. I don't know, maybe I'm just on a mission to get out of there without being rear ended with a cart and then, you know, a kid screaming at me or something.
Sylvain Charlebois 24:14
You don't talk to them, Colleen, you never talk to them?
Colleen Martin 24:17
I don't you know what, this is another thing that's going on label me, I don't use-, I use the self-checkout because it's faster because-, only because I'm really fast at it because I used to do it for a living and I'm faster than the cashiers because,
Michael LeBlanc 24:31
On a separate note, all the grocers listening, if you want more engagement on-, on self-checkout train the customers to be like cashiers for a day.
Colleen Martin 24:39
Don't even get-, don't even get our-, the Canadian's started on that topic because they already think they should be getting paid or discount for doing their own checkout. That is a resounding-, we've had other-, other studies in field that that people say it's not fair, but here we go. Have you ever noticed of cashiers or sitting or standing in grocery stores. What do you think, guys, in terms of yes, where do you think it is?
Sylvain Charlebois 25:04
Notice-, noticing, I guess 50%, maybe.
Colleen Martin 25:11
76.8% of people have noticed whether cashiers are sitting or standing. 15%-, 15% said they haven't and then only 7.5% say I'm not sure and that seems low to me. I thought the majority would-, would say I don't notice, but clearly people are on the lookout.
Sylvain Charlebois 25:31
They are noticing. Yeah, absolutely for what's happening there.
Colleen Martin 25:35
And there's that stigma attached to you know, standing versus sitting laziness and professionalism, all that kind of stuff. right?
Michael LeBlanc 25:41
So that's the hypothesis. That's-,
Colleen Martin 25:43
That's the hypothesis.
Michael LeBlanc 25:44
That's what we're trying to get to. We don't know if that's the case. But-
Colleen Martin 25:46
So, we're gonna dig into this a little more, we asked, how would you feel if cashiers in-, in Canadian grocery stores were sitting down, instead of standing at the register on a national level 28.6% of people said, that's a very positive thing. 15.9% said somewhat positive, so talk two box-, that's top two boxes, that's pretty good and then 46% neutral and the balance of that around 8.5% were negative, so that's pretty low. It's-, it's, I thought that it would be much more skewed people would view that negatively.
Michael LeBlanc 26:22
Neutral to positive, which is kind of sometimes the way I look at your research, you know, this is something that could be good, if it-, if it were. Like Canadians don't seem to mind. Interesting.
Sylvain Charlebois 26:32
But the neutral-, neutral result is concerning, though. I mean, it's-, that's a dangerous zone to be in because you never know where it could go and that's almost half of respondents and so if you are, if people do notice, and all of a sudden, you go the wrong way, with your policy, your store policy, you may basically annoy some consumers.
Michael LeBlanc 26:57
Isn't it like-, it's a pretty direct question? Like it's not a-
Sylvain Charlebois 26:59
I know but I just hate indifference, as a researcher, I just have an opinion, for goodness’ sake, are for or against, come on.
Colleen Martin 27:11
You know, go look at Instagram, you'll see lots of opinions there. We broke this out by gender and by demographic, so essentially millennials and Gen Y over index and positive support for sitting. So that attracts right and in terms of women and men, there was really no difference in terms of neutrality or positivity. So, it was more a generational difference of-, of the younger generation supporting people having a more, I guess, a better workplace essentially is-
Sylvain Charlebois 27:40
Right.
Colleen Martin 27:41
The assumption, if you're able to sit. So, then we asked, what is your level of agreement with the following statement: grocery store cashiers sitting at the register appear less professional versus cashiers who are standing. So nationally, taught to box agree 31% is less professional. So, we're kind of double positive here. So, it's-
Sylvain Charlebois 28:03
Almost a third.
Colleen Martin 28:04
A third of people think it is less professional and 36% neutral, here's your favorite, they're neutral again and then 32%. So, more people disagree with that, just marginally and not statistically significant. When you look at the margin of error, essentially it is the same. So-, for-, for and against.
Michael LeBlanc 28:23
It's a tie, basically, with a group in the center that would probably have Sylvain, it feels like the people would have to actually see it, but the questions are pretty direct. I mean, we're not beating around the bush here.
Sylvain Charlebois 28:33
Yeah, but with a result like that, if I'm a manager of a store, and I see results like that, status quo, man. I'm just out, I wouldn't do anything. I wouldn't change a thing.
Michael LeBlanc 28:43
I'll give you; I'll give you another approach. The other approach would be to take a store and try to pilot it.
Sylvain Charlebois 28:50
You know what I was in Spain. Last week I saw-, so I walked into a Little and there were four cashiers, two of them were sitting two, two of them were standing. The two youngest cashiers were sitting, the two oldest and they were probably at least 55 years old. Both of them were standing. I thought that was interesting.
Colleen Martin 28:54
What are the KPIs for success?
Michael LeBlanc 29:14
Well, Colleen. You asked what the KPIs were, I think there's, I think there's three sets of them, right? There's obviously the consumer set, you'd have to do a pre-post in some way, shape or form of those people be a little tricky, but it's not like, I don't know. I mean, it's not like you'd buy less, would you not, would you not shop there because you, you thought these people, you're not getting great value, like we'd have to scratch the surface a lot deeper, but I would think the other set of KPIs would be on employees and associates and then the third set would be on-, on throughput and productivity, right. Hours, like are your people happier, more satisfied and see, are they doing more work for longer because they don't have to like, you know, stretch and take breaks, more breaks just for bending and sitting like those. Those to me would be the three. The first one to be the toughest to get out, I guess what do you think, Sylvain?
Sylvain Charlebois 30:07
Yeah, no, I agree. You need to be specific here in terms of what could, you know, what could drive a change, I guess. Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, I mean, with a result like that, you don't want to rock the boat. You can try things over a week or two weeks, like you mentioned, Michael, just using one store, or hi-, going hybrid, but I, one would think if you want to encourage people to use self-checkout, wouldn't you want to make cashiers less, look less professional, I guess, I don't know.
Michael LeBlanc 30:45
That's a dark interpretation.
Sylvain Charlebois 30:46
Like why-, why not, I mean, if you-, if your strategy is to push people to use self-checkout, wouldn't you want to make cashews less attractive, like less of an attractive option.
Michael LeBlanc 30:56
So, your advice is to make cashier's-, your advice instead is to make cashiers unapproachable.
Colleen Martin 31:03
I mean, guys.
Sylvain Charlebois 31:04
I mean, the bottom. From my experience as a consumer, I mean, often, the only unpleasant quote unquote, experiences I've seen our young kids just shy to death, and don't want to even look at you in the eye. Beyond that, it's been okay. I mean, but really, as a manager, you want-, you want to train your cashiers to be engaging looking people in the eye. I mean, I've seen several cashiers never even looking at me, they just look at my credit card.
Michael LeBlanc 31:37
Okay, and what else-, what else do we got in the survey, Colleen, that might be kind of-
Colleen Martin 31:40
So, I think the-, one of the really interesting bits about question 4 is that I broke it out by gender. So, 36% of women disagree, meaning they appear less professional versus cashiers who are standing and 27% of men disagree.
Sylvain Charlebois 32:00
Oh, it's so judgmental. Most cashiers are women.
Colleen Martin 32:03
That's statistically significant.
Sylvain Charlebois 32:05
Yeah, it is and most cashiers are women, they're judging their peers.
Colleen Martin 32:12
So, we got one last question we asked then, what is your level of agreement with the following statement, grocery store cashiers sitting at the register are likely to provide slower service, because that's what matters, right, CX of the consumer versus cashiers who were standing, for Q5, nationally, top to box agree 37%. So, there's more-, more people agreeing and less people neutral, 31% and 33% disagree in the bottom two boxes. So, there's virtual-, and there's virtually no difference in gender.
Sylvain Charlebois 32:43
I was-, I was expecting, like clearer results, to be honest. It's-, it seems to be a split market. What do you think, Michael?
Michael LeBlanc 32:51
I'm wondering, and this is where the research professionals come in. I mean, is it a question people hadn't considered until we asked it in the survey, like, it's not a question that, like, it's not an act of debate in any kind of form, in any way, shape, or form. I guess, if you've traveled to Europe and seen it once or twice. But do you think there's any response bias in this, like, oh, I didn't even think of that and that kind of creates that big middle ground of I don't know, I don't know what to think.
Sylvain Charlebois 33:16
Let's say let's say you're a reporter and you actually ask people outside a grocery store and ask the same question to them face to face. My guess is that 90% would say, let them sit if they want to, but the survey to me is telling, the survey conducted by Caddle gets to the truth and gets to the bottom of what people actually think.
Michael LeBlanc 33:41
Interesting, super interesting.
Colleen Martin 33:43
It's split, right, in thirds, right. I think people-, I-, I had to ask myself the same question, I don't really care. I care about the experience. I get if I were to go to a cashier, are they happy, are they nice, is it fast. Those are the only things I care about and if giving them the flexibility to sit versus standing will make them better at their job, happier, providing a better CX to the consumer, then let them sit.
Sylvain Charlebois 34:10
But I'm surprised with-, with-, with COVID and everything-, everything that's gone on will last for years. I'm surprised that we haven't-, we haven't had this discussion about cashiers. I mean, remember the hero pay and-, and they were considered as heroes, and nobody really talked about their working conditions beyond the virus behind being exposed to risks. It was all about the job, it was about risks, but it was nothing. It wasn't about comfort; it wasn't about their roles and different tasks. They have to, they have to do, and I think this is-, I think this debate is not gonna go away. I think it's actually going to stick around for a while. It's unfinished business, I think.
Michael LeBlanc 34:55
Well, listen Colleen, this is exactly what we were hoping to do with our partnership. Let's just kind of get below the surface with some interesting ideas that we had. So, do you have any plans for the summer? We're gonna get you back on when we're back on live together in August, early September. What are you doing for the summer?
Colleen Martin 35:13
Training for more races, that's my boring life and we do operate-
Sylvain Charlebois 35:18
When's your next race?
Colleen Martin 35:19
My race-, next race is in the Niagara area called Barrowman. It's a half Ironman distance triathlon, so that'll be mid-September.
Sylvain Charlebois 35:25
Mid-September, okay.
Colleen Martin 35:26
Before then we operate a pick your own organic blueberry farm in the Flamborough area, in Cooktown and so we're prepping for that and that-, that goes from mid-July to mid-August. We're excited about inviting hundreds of people to the farm to pick their own blueberries.
Sylvain Charlebois 35:43
I love-, I love picking blueberries.
Colleen Martin 35:46
Now you don't have to delegate that to your children, but you can have some pizza. I'll fire up the pizza oven if you guys come out.
Michael LeBlanc 35:53
Well, tell the listeners in case they happen to be in the Greater Toronto Area or Milton or Flamborough, that whole area where to find more information about your blue berry farm.
Sylvain Charlebois 36:02
How far away are you from Toronto, Colleen?
Colleen Martin 36:05
About-, depending on where in Toronto but downtown is about an hour and 10. So not, not very, not very far and if they want information on Facebook. Binkley farm, BINKLEY farm is where you can find us.
Michael LeBlanc 36:19
What a multi-dimensional personality and talent you are, my goodness.
Colleen Martin 36:25
Undiagnosed ADHD but thank you.
Michael LeBlanc 36:30
Well, listen, thanks again for joining us on the pod. Great thanks for your partnership and thanks to Caddle for helping us do what we do and bring what we do to people. Have an amazing summer. We'll be in touch.
Colleen Martin 36:42
You guys, as well.
Michael LeBlanc 36:42
We already have some ideas about what we want to ask Canadians through Caddle for the fall. We'll be in touch and until then, take care and I'm coming out for some blueberries. You've been quite articulate, or you've put a fair bit of volume into-, into this. Your thought-, you're thinking about the capital gains showdown.
Sylvain Charlebois 37:04
Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 37:04
Now, you call it a showdown. I'm not sure if it's a showdown at all. I mean, you know, basically it was.
Sylvain Charlebois 37:10
It's not a showdown, no.
Michael LeBlanc 37:11
It was a trap, or attempted trap laid for Poilievre, and he just punted. He just said, well, you know, I'll look at it, but he has no opinion on it. Now there's a lot of people coming out saying it doesn't just affect 1.1% of people. What are your thoughts in terms of agriculture, you're worried about agriculture?
Sylvain Charlebois 37:27
I want to give a shout out to Andrew Chang from the CBC, I actually think that he actually prepared a 15-minute video explaining why this new-, this increase in capital gains tax is not just impacting the ultra-rich, and he goes through 15 minutes, he basically just unpacks everything very, very well. For-, and then he starts he starts to look at generational management, or succession management between generations. He looks at different professions, like doctors and farmers how they can be impacted as well, in his video. I mean, most capital-, I mean, I'm sure you've paid capital gains taxes, I've done that too and I mean, it happens in life, but it's always a one time so even every year, you'll-, you'll have a lot of gains pay capital gains taxes, but they're not necessarily the same Canadians every single year, but over time, you may actually end up seeing well over a million Canadians being impacted by this. Jack Mintz-
Michael LeBlanc 37:57
Former professor of mine.
Sylvain Charlebois 38:17
I didn't know that.
Michael LeBlanc 38:24
That's right. Jack was my Economics professor to Rotman, good guy, I know Jack well.
Sylvain Charlebois 38:55
No, he's a great guy. So, I've-, I've interacted with him many times. So, he's the, he's an economist at the University of Calgary and he basically tried to calculate-
Michael LeBlanc 39:08
He's probably one of the world's foremost tax economists. Right.
Sylvain Charlebois 39:12
Exactly and so basically, he claimed, in Andrew's video, that approximately 1.2 to 1.3 million Canadians will be impacted by this change and I agree with him, I actually think over time, you just think of the number of farms, the number of number of businesses the number, and frankly, it's all about planning and in the agri food sector in particular, and this is something I said in Parliament a few weeks ago, we got to be careful because many, many businesses are family businesses and that's their pension plan and so you want to understand how these taxes, how the fiscal regime in Canada can impact one's ability to transfer assets to another generation.
Sylvain Charlebois 39:59
How can they use their assets and their often, I mean these family businesses are asset rich, cash poor. We've heard that before and how do we actually make sure that these that families are well protected and that's why I think there's a huge debate, but there's a lot of misinformation coming from both ends, I think, from Pierre Poilievre and Chrystia Freeland, but again, I do want to encourage people, and you should put a link on our show, with Andrew Chang's video from the CBC because I think in 15 minutes, if you're confused about the capital gains tax debate, listen to that video, it will clarify everything.
Michael LeBlanc 40:41
Well, not a political podcast, but it may be all a moot point because based on the results, I don't know, if you're following the byelection in Toronto, St. Paul, where the Liberals lost an iron clad stronghold, which kind of lazed, you know, Trudeau had said, our prime minister had said, you know, Canadians really aren't in decision mode yet. So, I'm not worried. I think their decision mode now, at least the voters of Toronto, and Toronto, St. Paul, electing a conservative, so I'm not sure what that means, you know, often these byelections are a message to the ruling power. I'm not sure that liberals, it's very hard to see the Liberals being in power.
Sylvain Charlebois 41:19
I got two messages there. Okay. One, I don't think that Trudeau would want to go before November to understand who is going to be the new tenant or old tenant. Are we going to see the same tenant in a White House or a new tenant in a White House? That's one thing and it is going to be influencing Canadian politics. I think that's one thing, interest and secondly, I would never, ever underestimate a Trudeau ever. I know that polls are against him right now. He just lost-
Michael LeBlanc 41:29
The voters are against him, it's not this to the polls anymore. It's not just an opinion. He got drowned.
Sylvain Charlebois 42:00
I know and he just lost a big part, but it was a partial elections, and we're about to start-, about to start the summer, mid-July, everyone would have forgotten about Toronto, Toronto, St. Paul's, like everyone will forget about politics and so we're going into the Fall, the presidential election will be in full swing.
Michael LeBlanc 42:19
Interesting.
Sylvain Charlebois 42:20
I, honestly, if I were Trudeau, I wouldn't move at all and frankly, if I-, if I were conservative, I would want you to leave.
Sylvain Charlebois 42:29
I mean, the liberals had a star candidate, and the conservative didn't and they won and so that's a really telling story. But again, like I said, politics, like two months is a-, is an eternity in politics and like I said, Trudeau I wouldn't-, I wouldn't underestimate him. Like I just-, he can come back. I think he can come back depending on what goes on in the United States and everything else inflation is going away.
Michael LeBlanc 42:29
Anyway,
Michael LeBlanc 42:55
I think you're completely wrong. They-, the Liberals cannot win the election. With Trudeau-
Sylvain Charlebois 43:01
It's 16 months.
Michael LeBlanc 43:03
They won't. It's too late.
Sylvain Charlebois 43:04
18 months.
Michael LeBlanc 43:04
The polls, if you look at the polls, they're so far apart, whatever you say, about the polls-
Sylvain Charlebois 43:09
I know but the cost-of-living crisis is coming to an end.
Michael LeBlanc 43:13
Anyway, there's nobody to replace it. Like all the usual cast of characters, including Mark Carney who just will be seen as you know, that's what's his name version 2.0. Yeah, his name is Michael Ignatieff 2.0. Anyway, not a political podcast, but it does affect agriculture.
Sylvain Charlebois 43:31
It's a bit of fun. It's kind of fun.
Michael LeBlanc 43:33
It's a bit of fun, speaking of a bit of fun, but actually very interesting. Let's get to our interview. Our second interview with Victor Thomas from Canada-India Business Council, because there's some politics involved in this right. There's a lot of politics involved, and he refers to it, he's not shy about mentioning the relations between India and Canada are under a cloud to say the least, but he explains it better, and he explains why we should care. Let's have a listen.
Sylvain Charlebois 44:00
Well today joining us on our podcast, we have a special guest. In fact, someone who I've-, I've known for many, many, many years, going back to my days in Regina, now. He's traveling all over the world. I'm traveling too. Once in a while we run into each other at some airports somewhere and I'm talking about Victor Thomas, the CEO of the Canadian-India Business Council. Victor, welcome to our podcasts.
Victor Thomas 44:29
Hey, Sylvain, nice to-, nice to connect with you. Nice to connect with you, Michael and great privilege to be here.
Sylvain Charlebois 44:35
So, first of all, talk to us a little bit about yourself, who you are and how you ended up working for the Canadian-India Business Council.
Victor Thomas 44:46
So, thank you. Well, as you mentioned, I was born and raised in beautiful Regina, Saskatchewan, you know that part of the world happens to export a lot to the rest of the world. Actually disproportionately such that, you know, got that international, I would say even an international trade bug in me and as I look back on my career over the last two decades, my focus has been on international strategy, governance and global business development and when you look at where the world is moving, it happens to be-, to a country that's always been around, but now happens to-, to hold the torch as the largest growth economy in the world and so when I was fortunate to have an opportunity to take the leadership at the council, now, close to four and a half years ago, I thought, pretty, pretty unique timing, and pretty unique place for India and if Canada can do more with a country like that, that's pretty exciting. So that's kind of why I'm here and we're here to increased trade, increase investment, buy nationally between the two countries and we think there's a lot of complementarity and when it comes to agriculture, a pretty special relationship.
Sylvain Charlebois 46:05
Yeah, no, absolutely. Now, we've-, we've heard, of course, following the news that the relationship between Canada and India is somewhat tense right now, but from an agri food perspective, how would you describe Canada's relationship currently right now with India?
Victor Thomas 46:24
So yes, there are some tensions on the diplomatic front, but one of the few things that I've got both countries to agree upon the last eight months is that business should continue and business has continued and when you look at the total value of trade in goods, you know, the relationships about a 10 to $13-, $13 billion relationship in actual goods, and then about a $10 billion service relationship, you know, we've actually seen numbers increase and so that's, you know, very few people have expected that very few people actually thought that's the case, I, of course, would like to see it increase a lot more than it has, but in the midst of these diplomatic challenges, business is finding a way and business is finding the markets, again, bi-nationally, not just from Canada to India, but also from India to Canada.
Victor Thomas47:23
And we're seeing that, because when you think of what India is-, is now the most populous nation on Earth. When you think of the growth that is projected, 8%, we just saw an election last week where you saw historic win by the current prime minister for a third mandate, this one, just under a majority, but with this coalition will have majority, you're starting to see India's trajectory at a scope and scale that you've never seen it in its previous number of decades, and you're starting to see business engage with that market, unlike you've ever seen it before and so just to give you context, now, it's the most populous nation on earth, there's a lot of mouths to feed.
Victor Thomas 48:13
So, when you talk about agriculture, Canada's the fifth largest export in the world, India's is the most populous nation, they cannot produce enough food for themselves. So, when you are looking for safe, reliable, high quality food, Canada can fill in and yes, there is competition in the world. So if we don't do it, we're not going to be positioned, but Canada should and can be, you know, a safe, reliable supplier of the highest grade food in the world to India and when you think of a nation that is not just large in terms of mouths to feed, but also happens to be vegetarian, we can also produce we can also produce and supply high quality protein food to that emerging market.
Sylvain Charlebois 49:02
That's great. So, I guess, you seem to be very positive about-, about our relationship with India, going two ways. So, what are some of the greatest opportunities, still sticking to food and ag, what are the best opportunities for both Canadian and Indian businesses? When it comes to-, to this particular relationship?
Victor Thomas 49:28
Well, I think-, I think I take a macro, more macro picture than some that want to get in the nuances of current diplomatic challenges and when we actually see the numbers, as I said, numbers are going up in terms of trade, so that's great, but you know, if you even look at the Indo Pacific strategy that the government put out in late November of 2022, agri-food is a priority sector and so if you think of the Indo Pacific strategy, our biases is the heart of Indo Pacific strategy comes through India, and they've even talked about putting, you know, upwards of $32 million, in terms of expanding that agricultural trade with the region, and agri trade is-, is booming, because basically what you're seeing is the economic development of India.
Victor Thomas 50:21
But India, unlike Canada's not a export driven economy, it's a consumer driven economy and you're seeing some of the poorest of the poor, move up the socio economic ranks, and you're seeing a middle class that is approximately two to 300 million scheduled to rise to 600 to 800, even possibly a billion people over the decades, next two decades, and so as you start to see that, what do people want as they move up the socioeconomic ladder is they want high quality food, and India can only provide so much and so that's why you're starting to see places like Saskatchewan, which you referenced earlier, since 2013, exports have grown from India. I'm from Saskatchewan alone to India 52% and so you know, things like lentils, things like pulse crops, even potentially canola, all of these things are going to be needed in a country that's going to be on the trajectory it is.
Michael LeBlanc 51:26
Well, with 52% growth. You know, my next question was going to be, maybe it's-, I don't know, maybe it's redundant. But what are there any regulatory challenges that Canadian agri-food companies face when exporting to India?
Victor Thomas 51:38
There are and there can be regulatory challenges and again, I think that's one of the positives in the midst of a diplomatic-, diplomatic tensions, we're actually seeing no extra barriers or regulatory retaliation from both governments, but, you know, India typically has had, and that's been one of the challenges is that as the market becomes more mature, you're actually seeing them get trade agreements with other countries around the world, Australia now has one, UAE, they did a four country block trade agreement worth 100 billion in the last six months and so-, and Canada, up until September last year, was looking at doing early progress agreements.
Victor Thomas 52:21
And so it is significant because you're starting to see India engage with the world, unlike it's ever done before, and you're starting to see the world engage with India. If you think about it, just 11, 12 years ago, India was the 11th largest economy in the world and the UK was the fifth, in the fall of 2022, India has surpassed the UK now to become the fifth largest economy and if you look at the track, that it's on, you know, potentially by the end of this decade, it will not just be the fourth, but it'll move up to third largest economy in the world and so you're starting to see them in terms of the maturing of the market in terms of understanding the growth that the country is having as a whole, but again at end of the day, it's because of that large population base and they're going to need higher quality, better quality foods, and rich proteins and, you know, we're-, we're our hands up to say Canada can provide more of that.
Michael LeBlanc 53:25
Now, is there anything, let me ask the question differently, is there anything standing in the way from how we produce food? So, this trade agreements, let's call those you know, those are negotiated trade agreements, is there anything or advice so to speak, that is getting in or could get in our way in the way we make food or registered or food safety, is there anything structurally that might get in the way?
Victor Thomas 53:51
Well, I think, you know, when I think about Canada, is we export to-, we export right around the world and our Saito, sanitary standards are extremely high. If you want to-, if you want to find reasons to impede trade with Canada, on a number of different levels, you can always find things, you can always put in tariffs, you can always find reasons right, especially when you think of-, of how politically charged the country like India has at the national level and at the sub national level. If, for example, you know, prices. For example, local farmers had really great crops and so often there'd be you know, if monsoons were good, there's a lot of water. Farmers who had really good crops want to keep prices high. Sometimes you'd see tariffs immediately go up on agricultural products, but again, when you look at it and take a macro look and you look at the actual demand that India is going to have, you are seeing less and less of those things come into place and yes, there'll be some ebbs and flows, but the overall macro showcases the need and the growth opportunity, and we're starting to see more and more collaboration with Canadian agricultural providers to provide this market.
Michael LeBlanc 55:10
Now, within all this excitement, what do you-, what do you-, what do you, what does your organization do? Sounds like you spent a lot of time on an airplane, back and forth and you know, you know, our country well. What-, what-, what-, what are your top files in terms of addressing regulatory and challenges or regulatory opportunities and smoothing-, and facilitating smoother trade?
Victor Thomas 55:32
So, you know, we are, we are, you know, that you'd like to be the linchpin in the economic corridor. So how do we actually increase investment bi-nationally? How do we increase trade? You know, we have an advisory council, we have two of the most influential agricultural CEOs on that advisory, we bring companies together, not just in India, but also in Canada and we're always in dialogue to say, you know, what's happening, are deals being done, where the challenges, where the-, where the pain points, and where are those opportunities, and wherever we can help connect those folks, and those leaders were there to do it and sometimes, and if we can get out of the way and let everyone just see deals get done, then we're happy to just see those things move. So, the council has been around 42 years, I think the next 10 years of the council will be the most exciting, given all the things that I've said, but it's-, there has been-, there has been challenges in economic relationship because of the diplomatic and diplomatic aside the upside is so significant that, you know, I'm, I'm still cautiously very optimistic.
Michael LeBlanc 56:47
All right. You know, let's talk about any cultural differences. You know, the world's largest democracy just had an election, what a mammoth election. Just I-, just my mind spins in terms of running an election that size, but you know, we have that together and-, and we have many other things together, anything that-, that you off, that you find that you need to smooth out or gets in the way in terms of cultural, the way we do business together, or the way each country does business differently. Any-, any of those things, the soft challenges, can you say?
Victor Thomas 57:20
As you mentioned, they just had a historical election, 642 million people voted. Over six weeks and, you know, from all accounts, no one's opposition government, no one's pointed a finger with any error. So, think of a logistical quagmire that they just went through and on all accounts was very successful. The current government, as I mentioned, didn't get their full majority, and yet are finding a way to navigate, but one of the biggest cultural differences in terms of business is India is a very cost sensitive market and that is-, that is embedded into the fabric of the people and the companies. And so, that is always going to play a major piece.
Victor Thomas 58:10
And when I-, when I mentioned competition, you know, Australia, it has-, has made a significant pivot towards India in the last number of years. As I mentioned, they got a trade agreement, but now two different governments, two different stripes have, you know, and part of-, part of the recording of India has been due to some other geopolitical, you know, frustrations they've had in the region, specifically with China and so, you're seeing-, you're seeing markets like that, you see the geopolitical disruptions that are taking place in-, with Russia and Ukraine. That's also impacting India, but again, India is looking at things that are cost sensitive, and price will always be a big dictator.
Victor Thomas 58:54
The other thing to understand is that the market is diverse and fragmented. So, if you look at-, some people just think of India as, as a country that's unified and yes, it is a country and it is unified, but the diversity within the country. So, if you compare it to a place like the EU, India would actually in many ways be more diversified than the EU would be if you go to the state-to-state level, right throughout the country. So, food, dress, language, all are different throughout. And so, it can be a hard market to try to get your head around if you're actually dealing with all of those different areas.
Victor Thomas 59:37
And I think, you know, all the more reason given some of the diplomatic challenges agri-, Canadian ag-food companies have to focus on establishing credibility and partnerships with local firms and actively engage in those communities, because, as you both know, agriculture is always local, and unless you understand the local, then it's actually hard to do things at scale and I think our companies that have been there for a while have done it well have engaged and have those relationships, but it's not easy just to swoop in, come with the best price and immediately get traction, high context culture, have to know you who you're dealing with have to know the families have to know the businesses, and then you can move quickly.
Sylvain Charlebois 1:00:29
At this point, let's pivot a little bit towards policy and we're gonna allow you to-, to-, to vent based on your frustrations with both governments, every government tend to see trades very differently and so what are some of the pet peeves that you would have? Whether it's regarding Canada or India or both in relation to-, to agri food trade between the two nations?
Victor Thomas 1:01:02
Well, I would, you know, I'm-, we're not in the-, in the business of telling governments what to do, we're in the business of making sure business moves between the two countries. So I think as you look at it as a whole, one of the things that, as I go around the world, I was just in Brazil, last week, I was back in Southeast Asia, the week before that, and I come back to Canada, it is amazing what we have and when you look at agriculture, we are-, it is one of our superpowers that we sometimes almost try to keep quiet and the numbers speak for themselves and the future numbers speak for themselves, but you know, it is one of our greatest assets. It's one of our greatest superpowers as a country and we need to not only understand it better as a people, but also embrace it and so if we can just appreciate and understand what we currently have, then we're all of a sudden going to look at the world with very different eyes.
Victor Thomas 1:02:10
And I think that's important because the world needs our agriculture and in the midst of geopolitical tensions in the Middle East, and in Europe, and a number of other places in the world. We are one of those countries that, in many ways is-, is located in a safe jurisdiction in the world, has some of the highest quality food in the world, and has great trade relationships and great trade routes with the world and Canadians need to understand and appreciate what we have to be able to make sure that we get it out to the rest of the world, because the world needs what we have and that is especially true around agriculture.
Sylvain Charlebois 1:03:00
I'll ask one more question. And then I'll throw it back to Michael to-, to-, to get us home. How do you see Canada's relationship with India and vice versa over the next, say, 10 years from now, like, what are some of the trends that you're-, you're focusing on right now and are we going in the right direction, basically, regardless of what's going on with, with geopolitics?
Victor Thomas 1:03:26
I think-, I think as I said, I think the next 10 years for the Canada-India Business Council will be the most exciting. India is on the trajectory of the third largest economy in the world and my hope is, Canada can have a meaningful relationship as it ascends to where it'll ascend, right, so we shouldn't wait till India's on the economic podium of the world to build a stronger relationship. We should-, we should be doing that, you know, right now, because we know what's going there. We know the opportunities, we know the complementarity of the two economies and so my hope is that the diplomatic distractions that have been there all get dealt with and just like Australia has done in the last five, six years, has-, you know, has made a significant pivot from business standpoint, from a government to government standpoint, and from a cultural standpoint, to actually be able to harness and engage the country.
Victor Thomas 1:04:28
One of the things that I've been very excited about when it comes to agriculture and it's not on the traditional side, it's more on the technology side is there's a Canadian company called Clean Seed capital, and they've entered into technology license and manufacturing agreement with Mahindra Group but specifically Mahindra Tractors, which is now the largest tractor company in the world, and they're basically looking for Mahindra to manufacture and distribute their smart cedar mini max system with Clean Seed in India. So if you look at the current agricultural landscape in India, farms are very small and very primitive and so they-, if you think of this scale and technology that Canada has, it's almost completely the opposite and so this is just one example where you're seeing Canadian Technology tie in with one of the largest, well, the largest tractor company in the world, which we'll see a greater use of, and higher product productivity of that-, that specific farm.
Victor Thomas 1:05:37
But those farms that scale and so I think I think there's a lot of opportunities for on the ag tech side on the precision farming side, to actually bring some of those things in, and to see far greater yields and that's a collaboration that can again, business to business that can happen now and I hope some of our farmers, some of our ag tech folks are starting to think of this because the scale and size is so much smaller, but the number of farms is so much greater and so it is-, as we almost rethink some of the things that we take for granted here in Canada, if we actually start looking at those farms and say, okay, how do we actually improve those yields, how do we improve the efficiencies and the effectiveness, what are the ways we can, you know, enable things like smartphones-, smartphones, which India does have, at scale? And, and, you know, LTE technology, how do we leverage those things to actually see greater and, and this Clean Seed Capital and Mahindra Group agreement is one example where we're starting to see those things and I hope to see, you know, dozens of those kinds of partnerships in the years ahead on the ag side.
Michael LeBlanc 1:06:57
Well, that's a good jumping off point for my last question. Our last question is advice. So, what advice do you have for-, what's your best piece of advice, we're all sitting down for dinner, and you've got a table full of agribusiness executives, what's your one most important piece of advice to expand their reach in India?
Victor Thomas 1:07:16
I would just say food is a sensitive topic, and governments need to invest for the short and long term and by actually having a framework, be it, you know, we're, of course, advocating for early progress agreement, but actually a comprehensive agreement with India, where those things are all outlined, are clear, and give companies a framework in which they can clearly, you know, invest, but also trade with the country and from the Indian side, our answer to them is that if you, if you get something like that with Canada, you then open up, we have free, we have free trade agreements with all G7 countries and it can be a portal for you in terms of all of your trade especially with the Western world and so, you know, we-, we're a trading nation, we're an export driven market. Agriculture is one of our superpowers and we need countries like India that have an innate opportunity to do a lot more to source a lot more from this country. So ideally, having some kind of peace, some kind of regulatory peace or some kind of agreement in place, specific to agriculture will, will set the table for years and decades to come between the two countries.
Michael LeBlanc 1:07:18
Is there anything you can think of that businesses, business executives can do in the agribusiness, not politicians, but not regulators, but until those are you advocating that they talk to their local MP and that they kind of say this is a big opportunity, make sure they don't lose track of that, what would your one piece of advice be to the, you know, the folks running the businesses that look to grow?
Victor Thomas 1:09:03
I think the My advice to the executives is to see and understand the market. If you-, if you've seen it's complicated, it is complicated. If you've heard it's complex, it is complex, but until you go and see the vastness of the market, and the complementarity of the-, of the two countries, then you'll find ways to make it happen and that's what businesses do.
Michael LeBlanc 1:09:31
And is that something your organization helps facilitate?
Victor Thomas 1:09:34
Of course, we have business groups going back and forth all the time. So yeah, get in touch with us. You know, trades trade commissioner service through global affairs, but go and check out the opportunity, see where you can fit in and-, and participate. There's nothing like actually doing business.
Michael LeBlanc 1:09:55
Feet in the ground. Great advice, and how do people get in touch with you? So are you a LinkedIn person, Victor and what's the best way to get in touch with you or your organization if they want to pursue and learn more?
Victor Thomas 1:10:06
We're on LinkedIn, we're on address info@canada-indiabusiness.com. We're on, you can send, you can send old fashioned piece of mail to our address in Toronto or-, or find any way to communicate with us, we will, we will be happy to connect you with whomever and help you look at the market holistically to see what's best, but we think in the long run pretty significant opportunities.
Michael LeBlanc 1:10:36
Well, clearly you're excited about the opportunity, and I couldn't think of anybody better to have on the pod to discuss the future. So, thanks so much for joining Sylvain and I on The Food Professor podcast, real interesting discussion and interesting days ahead for sure and lots of opportunity, lots of competition. So, I guess the-, the message coming out of this is don't wait, don't wait for-, for that opportunity to come knocking on the door because it might knock on somebody else's door. So, giddy up and get going. Victor, thanks so much for being on the pod.
Victor Thomas 1:11:09
Thank you, Michael. Thank you, Sylvain. Great pleasure to be here.
Michael LeBlanc 1:11:12
All right. So, that was a great interview. In terms of understanding India. Now, you know, this is the last-, not the last time you and I will speak but we're-, we won't be speaking once a week. I don't know what you're going to be up to this summer, but I have an idea of where I'm going to be.
The Last Timbit Musical 1:11:30
What would you do for a Timbit when the night is cold, and the light is gone?
Sylvain Charlebois 1:11:40
Oh man. Are you gonna go?
Michael LeBlanc 1:11:45
That's right, there is Timbit the musical, produced in association with some guy who was some kind of producer on Come from Away, inspired by real Canadian stories, the Last Timbit, I'm reading from this script obviously follows a group of strangers who wait outside the snowstorm of the decade in a Tim Hortons hilariously heartfelt new musical, unlikely group comes together to explore family community and finds the best in hard times, all while battling for the last birthday cake Timbit. June 26th to the 30th of Elgin theater here in Toronto. I'm just angling for free tickets. I'm angling for free tickets. So Tim Hortons, if you're listening to this, Dunkin', if you're listening to this, you know, invite me along and we'll cover it.
Sylvain Charlebois 1:12:25
Michael needs tickets.
Michael LeBlanc 1:12:27
That's right. Anyway, if you thought you saw everything for the summer, you were wrong. There is now a Tim Hortons musical dedicated to the Timbit.
Sylvain Charlebois 1:12:37
What's this called, more than the filling? Is that Is that what-
Michael LeBlanc 1:12:41
It's called The Last Timbit because they fight over the last birthday cake Timbit. So, there you go.
Sylvain Charlebois 1:12:47
And where's it playing?
Michael LeBlanc 1:12:49
At the Elgin Theatre in Toronto?
Sylvain Charlebois 1:12:51
Isn't there like a Starbucks right next to it?
Michael LeBlanc 1:12:56
There might be but yeah, you know, I gotta give-, I gotta give Tim Hortons and we have gave Tim Hortons there due. You know, there was a time when-
Sylvain Charlebois 1:13:03
I've actually checked whether or not in New York or anywhere else, whether there's been a musical about a food chain. And I couldn't find anything. I saw one. There has been one musical actually, there is one musical in New York. About a waitress, that's all. That's all I found.
Michael LeBlanc 1:13:21
Well, snap. There you go. Tim Hortons. Like we've been impressed, actually by Tim Hortons lately. They lost the script there for a while, but we think they've got it back on, you know, the Bieber Tim-, the Bieber Timbit and all these things. I think they're, you know, I'd be curious. We gotta get somebody on. I'm curious to see how that pizza thing is going. I mean, they tested it for a while and
Sylvain Charlebois 1:13:42
I heard it's going well.
Michael LeBlanc 1:13:43
Oh, well, good for them.
Sylvain Charlebois 1:13:44
I heard it's going very well.
Michael LeBlanc 1:13:46
All right. Well, good for them. Maybe we'll get somebody on-, in the-, in the fall. So, and we also try to get a very senior person from Starbucks on since you mentioned Starbucks. I'm going to show I don't think she listens to the pod, Lyne Castonguay, who's been on before.
Sylvain Charlebois 1:13:59
Oh, yes.
Michael LeBlanc 1:14:00
We talked her when she was at Saputo, but now she's the big kahuna. Creating stuff at Starbucks. So, Lyne, if you're listening, come on the pod. We want to know what you're doing. Well, listen, uh, this is this fun and a little bit, you know, a little bit sad to you, and I won't be on the mic, but, again, to the listeners, you and I had so many great interviews. Sometimes I did it, but mostly, you know, you and I were both there at the same time. I think for the vast majority of them. Such interesting people in SIAL. It's a real treasure trove and we're going to bring it to you each and every week, over the summer. So, get ready, get ready for that, but until then, I'm Michael LeBlanc, consumer growth consultant, media entrepreneur and a bunch of other things and you are?
Sylvain Charlebois 1:14:46
I'm The Food Professor, Sylvain Charlebois and I want to wish all of you a happy and safe summer.
Michael LeBlanc 1:14:53
Where's the take care? Geez.
Sylvain Charlebois 1:15:00
Take care.
Michael LeBlanc 1:15:01
There you go. All right, everybody, and stay tuned for more and we'll come back to you both of us on the mic in the fall for more of this, you know Peabody winning stuff. So anyway, Take care everybody.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
India, Canada, food, cashiers, people, Canadians, years, agriculture, sitting, business, trade, great, country, guess, government, market, grocers, world, bit, Tim Hortons