In this podcast episode, we are thrilled to have back on the #pod for her regular monthly gig Colleen Martin, a renowned research expert from our presenting sponsor Caddle, who joins us to discuss their research conducted for our show and audience. Coinciding with the 4.20 Holiday, this episode delves into the latest consumer trends in retail cannabis, particularly edibles, beyond traditional forms like the 'devil's lettuce.' We also talk about the Food Industry implications of the Federal Budget, latest research from the Dalhousie Lab on Canadians and their breakfast habits, productivity in Canada, the latest CPI numbers, and the future of Red Lobster in an era of high lobster costs.
In this podcast episode, we are thrilled to have back on the #pod for her regular monthly gig Colleen Martin, a renowned research expert from our presenting sponsor Caddle, who joins us to discuss their research conducted for our show and audience. Coinciding with the 4.20 Holiday, this episode delves into the latest consumer trends in retail cannabis, particularly edibles, beyond traditional forms like the 'devil's lettuce.' Colleen's exclusive, fresh-baked, proprietary research enriches our understanding of consumer preferences in this evolving market.
The episode then shifts gears to discuss recent economic policies significantly affecting the food industry. We dissect the federal budget, highlighting key aspects such as rebates on the carbon tax benefiting farmers and small businesses and the absence of a "grocery windfall tax" Providing relief for the restaurant sector. We also delve into the latest Consumer Price Index (CPI) numbers, noting the moderation in food inflation, a trend Sylvain had previously predicted while underlining the impact of rising costs in other areas, like gas and housing, on overall inflation.
Government employment trends are another focal point, with Sylvain presenting data on increased federal employees during both Trudeau eras. This section provides context to government staffing levels compared to previous administrations, noting a ratio of 110 federal employees per citizen, significantly lower than the 150 per citizen in the U.S.
The episode briefly mentions trending topics in the food sector, such as survival food kits, reflecting on their practicality and recent surge in popularity, and the future of Red Lobster in an era of very high-priced lobster.
Caddle Survey on Canadian Cannabis Consumer Habits
https://askcaddle.com/thefoodprofessorpodcast/
Breakfast Survey
https://www.dal.ca/sites/agri-food/research/breakfast-survey.html
Sylvain Charlebois 00:04
Welcome to The Food Professor podcast presented by Caddle, season 4, episode 29. I'm Michael LeBlanc.
Sylvain Charlebois 00:11
And I'm The Food Professor, Sylvain Charlebois.
Michael LeBlanc 00:14
On this episode, our guest is a friend of the pod Colleen Martin from Caddle back with her-, for her railer visit with fresh baked proprietary research exclusive to The Food Professor podcast and speaking of baked, we're celebrating for 4/20 holiday with proprietary consumer research on retail cannabis, the state of consumer preferences beyond devil's lettuce and true to the show. We're specifically looking at consumer preferences around edibles.
Sylvain Charlebois 00:41
Yeah, no, it should be an interesting conversation with Colleen, they have up to date data. I've always I mean, cannabis. Let's face it, it's, it's a work in progress in Canada. It is-, it is legal. It was legalized a few years ago, but is it really are people consuming more or less, we'll find out.
Michael LeBlanc 01:03
Well, and we were particularly interested about-, about edibles.
Sylvain Charlebois 01:07
Edibles.
Michael LeBlanc 01:08
Because historically if I want to-, if we want to-, whatever historically means even looking at the States. Flower accounts for about 50% of what people enjoy and then the rest was some kind of alternative or edible or tincture or whatever. So, we're gonna get an update from Colleen on that, we were curious and of course.
Sylvain Charlebois 01:16
And we're a food show so we have to focus on edibles, of course.
Michael LeBlanc 01:29
Right. So, it just all makes sense. So, let's, well let's pop a couple of gummies and get on with the show. It's a busy show.
Sylvain Charlebois 01:38
CBD gummies.
Michael LeBlanc 01:39
We-, we-, it's not a bong show, we gotta get going. That's a-, that's a Tony Chapman joke. By the way, shout out to Tony Chapman and his great pod. Let's get into the news. Let's start with the federal budget. So, the budget came out two days ago. You know, there was-, it was an interesting budget cycle. We talked about this last-, last episode because it was well marketed, well in advance. It's a very different thing. You know, usually it's a big secret, but I saw some notes from different associations, farmers that they were both disappointed and optimistic, but, you know, I saw some wins, I see some wins on rebates and the carbon tax, I see some stuff for the restaurant sector and again, I didn't see any grocery windfall tax, but let's step back, what were your thoughts on the budget in the context of the food and agricultural sector?
Sylvain Charlebois 02:26
Yeah, so it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. To be honest, Frankly, my expectations weren't very high, but I was actually quite pleased with the carbon. I guess, reimbursements. That's what it is really. So, since 2019, Ottawa has been collecting the carbon tax from small businesses and small businesses need all the help they can get and I'm thinking about farmers, restaurants, all small, agri food processors out there. I mean, they need all the help they can get. So I was actually-, and as you know, Michael, last fall, I did recommend to the Finance Committee that we should pause on a carbon tax well it was even better. I mean, we just were basically giving that money back, but it does beg the question about the policy itself. I mean, we're reimbursing consumers, we reimbursing businesses. We're not measuring-
Michael LeBlanc 03:16
Where did that money go, anyway? Yeah, I don't understand.
Sylvain Charlebois 03:19
I know. We're not even measuring the impact of the carbon tax on climate. I mean, we're not even trying and so I do wonder why do we have this policy in the first place now, so that's one question. The other big huge disappointment is-, is-, is on infrastructure. I know it's not a popular theme. Nobody talks about that, because I think the capital tax actually got a lot of-, a lot of attention yesterday, but when I saw the $4.6 billion to be invested in infrastructure for trades, I thought, Oh, my God, it's so underwhelming, and we need way more, we need way more investments and so-, so on that, in that regard, I think that that's probably why farmers were very disappointed and I was very disappointed in the that.
Sylvain Charlebois 04:08
The food program, I wrote an op-ed earlier this week, I honestly think it should be part of the ag policy piece that we have in Canada, the sustainable Canadian agriculture or agri food policy, it's worth $3.5 billion over five years and the reason why the farm bill in the US is worth $1.4 trillion and we spoke about this last week is because they actually look at the nexus between supply and demand, both domestically and internationally. In Canada it's a piecemeal of different things. We want to feed our kids, let's actually do this, let's-, we want to do this, well let's do that. There's no cohesion, there's no vision for the agri food sector and-, and that's really what's missing in my view and but like I said, my expectation was very low. So what were your thoughts about the budget?
Michael LeBlanc 05:04
Well, it was similar. I mean, there's-, there's a lot of-, of course, I've been through many of these budgets as an advocate as well and there's many calls on the public purse, so to speak, lots of people are either disappointed, happy, or somewhere in between.
Sylvain Charlebois 05:17
Restaurants Canada appeared to be happy.
Michael LeBlanc 05:19
Yeah, they appeared to be happy. I mean, people are either happy or sad, because they didn't get enough money, or they-, they felt, you know, put up by different structural tax things like capital taxes and stuff like that.
Sylvain Charlebois 05:30
Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 05:30
You know, I think-, I think that leaves opportunity in this budget. I mean, it's-, it's a big run up to the election budget. There's probably another budget in-, in the hopper before we get-, before the rip drops, but I thought it was an opportunity, if not a lot-
Sylvain Charlebois 05:44
But do you think this budget is gonna pass?
Michael LeBlanc 05:46
Oh, yeah, I think the budget would pass, because, you know, not to get political on a not a political podcast, but I mean, the reason the Liberals are talking about building more rental units isn't because Millennials want to live in rental units, because the NDP people vote for the NDP live on rental units and that-, and you know-
Sylvain Charlebois 06:01
And frankly, the housing focus is absolutely appropriate and-
Michael LeBlanc 06:04
Very much so.
Sylvain Charlebois 06:05
And critical because I mean, we-, we're looking at the food numbers, I mean, people are hurting out there. They have less money spent on food, because of shelter.
Michael LeBlanc 06:12
Yeah. I mean, I think the government's finally getting it in and then executing on messaging that says, we see that there's a housing crisis, we see there's an affordability crisis, we see some of that reflected in here. I mean, I-, you know, in the world of things that I'm disappointed about, I'm disappointed is actually a bit of a strong word, but my overarching concern, and this goes back to our discussion, last episode, we've talked about it over the years is-, is this, as you say, I need cohesive agricultural policy that makes sure that we're maximizing all the wonderful assets of our country, and at the same time, feeding our people and-, and doing all those things together. I mean, where is the opportunity to have, we've talked about it, a food stamp type program.
Sylvain Charlebois 06:13
Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 06:14
You've come up with ideas. I don't see that anywhere. That's an innovative idea. We could use an innovative idea in this country right now. So, I'm bereft of finding innovation.
Sylvain Charlebois 07:04
Well, for agri tech-
Michael LeBlanc 07:06
Yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois 07:06
For agri tech. I mean, it's pretty simple. If you're not implementing something that has to do with the environment. You're on your own because, I mean, there is some money-
Michael LeBlanc 07:16
Or AI, there's some there's some-
Sylvain Charlebois 07:18
Or AI.
Michael LeBlanc 07:18
Which is, which is good.
Sylvain Charlebois 07:20
Which is absolutely good. Yeah. So, the focus on AI was very-, very important, as far as I'm concerned, but the thing is, is that can we actually give ourselves a more productive economy as a result of this budget and I just mean-, unless you see it, I don't see it at all.
Michael LeBlanc 07:41
Yeah, I don't see in this budget a growth-, it's not a growth budget, you know, and let's-, let's talk about, not the elephant in the room, but the whatever in the room, which is productivity, and we've talked about it and you seem to have ignited a fair bit of views with 100,000s of views when you-, you posted a chart-
Sylvain Charlebois 07:58
Over half a million.
Michael LeBlanc 07:59
Half a million views on X where you posted a chart that showed growth in federal employees during the Trudeau era. Now, if you went back another 20, 30, 40 years, we're actually back to where it was probably where his father was.
Sylvain Charlebois 08:13
Trudeau's father. Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 08:14
You know, it kind of went down during Mulroney and because you know, Mulroney privatized a bunch of stuff, right. CN, Air Canada, remember back in the days, they were government employees, right. They were Crown corporations. But you know, what I find is, is that-, that opportunity. Now, let's talk about those numbers a little bit, because I asked you specifically, again, not about the-, I mean, you're an economist, you're thinking about overall productivity, but when we were talking even last episode about the episode before about, there's just not enough inspectors, it seems in the CFIA, there's 9000 of them.
Michael LeBlanc 08:47
Could we use more-, could we use more federal employees and we know-, you would know that federal employees increase due to everything from immigration, I mean, if you're gonna bring in 2 million people, somebody's got to vet those 2 million people, somebody's got to get their passports, somebody's got to handle the CERB and somebody has to handle all that stuff out of COVID. So you could pick apart that growth in a number of different ways but ultimately, what I'm curious about from you for this pod is where you think, are we overstaffed and understaffed from a food sector perspective from a federal government, if at all?
Sylvain Charlebois 09:19
Well, no, it's a great question and frankly, when I saw my-, my posts go viral, I kinda repost a question. I mean, what, what is the optimal size of government, I mean, I think it's a fair question that we should all ask ourselves and like-
Michael LeBlanc 09:35
We're not-, we're not that far off. You know, you posted-, you posted. What was it, that in Canada there's a federal employee for every 110 citizens and in the US, it's 150.
Sylvain Charlebois 09:44
It's 150, yeah, I mean, at a federal level.
Michael LeBlanc 09:46
I thought that was pretty close, actually, you know, in like, I thought that'd be much-
Sylvain Charlebois 09:50
You thought it was actually farther, you thought it a bigger difference.
Michael LeBlanc 09:52
I thought it would have been farther, you know, America's land of the, you know, the-, the free enterprise but yeah, so-
Sylvain Charlebois 09:59
Basically, we do have-, I mean, we need to recognize that we currently have a government that is nationalizing a lot of programs. I mean, think of daycare, PharmaCare school, the school program, you need people and so-, so I don't really, I mean, the question about optimizing the Public Service has nothing to do with a number, it has everything to do with the vision that the government should have and right now, like, I wouldn't be surprised to see the government increase even more and be-, to support some of these-, and you need the people to support those kinds of programs. The problem is that in the budget yesterday, I don't know if you saw that, but they're actually-, they've promised to decrease the public servants by 5000, while nationalizing all of these programs, like day care, and-
Michael LeBlanc 10:51
They probably do it through attrition though, like some civil serv-, you know-, you know, the numbers are so big, all they have to do is stop filling some posts on different files-
Sylvain Charlebois 10:59
Oh, and that's how the government actually does. I mean, Harper actually did exactly that. I mean, and-, but it was pretty devastating. I do work with the CFI quite a bit, go to meetings and I gotta tell you, one day, I walked into the CFI and all the desks on one floor were empty, like all the desks. That was pre COVID and it was just wow, you saw the Harper years were really hard on the public service, but since then, so I think we were all expecting Trudeau to be much friendlier to the public service, but right now, when you look at ag-, agri food related departments, what was really interesting is that I'd say for the most part, they're pretty average, they've actually hired some people, but you can tell like agri food Canada is not even at the level that-, that it was in 2015. So, and-, and also, the one agri food related agency that has actually increased the most is the Canadian Dairy Commission and the Canadian Dairy Comm-, and dairy-, the Canadian Dairy Commission oversees the dairy sector, and we're drinking less milk in Canada.
Michael LeBlanc 11:51
So there's-, there's an opportunity right there, right. So, you know, as we go through this, as you say, I think it's a great discussion, because you can make judgments about it because if I saw some of the reaction is like, oh, my God, Trudeau has gotta go. Is that-
Sylvain Charlebois 12:21
Yeah, it was pretty-, It was pretty intense.
Michael LeBlanc 12:22
But-, but it's really taking a data point completely out of context.
Sylvain Charlebois 12:26
The CRA to me, the CRA is an extreme case, that perhaps we're hiring too much.
Michael LeBlanc 12:32
So, in the last two years, they ran the-, they ran the COVID program.
Sylvain Charlebois 12:35
So people may argue it's about revenue. That's a good thing. Well, look at the numbers. So yesterday, what we saw was an increase of 7% of the government revenue in the last year. Over two years, I think it's about 13%. So-, over two years. So, the CRA has actually increased the number of employees by 25% in the last two years, so are we going to get-, is-, is that the ROI, are we gonna get more revenue? I don't know, but something is going on.
Michael LeBlanc 13:06
You turn them into tax-, your turn them into tax farmers basically.
Sylvain Charlebois 13:09
Tax farmers. Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 13:10
Right. More people go out and get more owed tax. By the way, I wanted on record that I love the CRA and all the people that work there.
Sylvain Charlebois 13:19
Yes, absolutely, especially right now.
Michael LeBlanc 13:22
I love them all.
Sylvain Charlebois 13:23
Right now. Yes, we love you.
Michael LeBlanc 13:25
I love them all. All right. Well, let's-, let's leave that there. I mean, that's a very interesting discussion, you know, globally-, you know, globally, are we over and-, and there's also like, you know, some downloading of responsibilities to the provinces and some funding. So if we took all, you know, government employees into one, I mean, heck, you know, you go to Quebec, and government employees are selling cannabis. So, you know.
Sylvain Charlebois 13:47
CFIA in terms of the number of employees, I think the Trudeau years have actually been quite friendly to the CFIA. Health Canada, same thing. So, I mean, I trained future bureaucrats, I mean future public servants. So it's hard for me to-, to say, oh, my god, our public services are too big. I mean, I believe in the role of the state and you need a strong government and I know a lot of people will send me nasty emails, because I just said that, but that's my bias.
Michael LeBlanc 14:20
Let's talk about the CPI numbers that came out, it was a busy week this week, CPI numbers came out and it looks like food inflation continues to moderate if the my reading of it-, gas and accommodation increase is really made up for the
Sylvain Charlebois 14:32
Actually, with food inflation the-, an hour before it was posted. I said 2% It was what it was 1.9% So it was pretty close.
Michael LeBlanc 14:41
Pretty close. That's-, that's very close. Yeah. So-, so you must be I mean, you weren't surprised. You must be, you know, you predicted this in your reports.
Sylvain Charlebois 14:50
My concern is core inflation. To be honest, I mean, I think we spoke about this a few weeks ago. I actually know a lot of people are speculating and in June, we'll see a rate drop. I don't know, man, I seriously I'm looking at the Fed and the US. I'm looking at the core inflation rate here. The economy's boiling in the US. I-, we're lucky, if we get a hold in June, I'll be honest and-, and so a few reporters were-, I was talking to today asked me well, what's-, what do we need to do to help people, well, it's not going to be at the grocery store. It's going to be with shelter, it's going to be with debt. That's where it's hurting right now.
Michael LeBlanc 15:35
Let's move on from economic matters and let's get to breakfast. So you are releasing some great results. Are you a breakfast kind of person I-, you know, if I have a breakfast shout out to Burnbrae Eggs, and Margaret Hudson, I saw her a couple of weeks ago, we were talking about eggs, we're having some eggs between us actually, I love a good huevos rancheros or a good-, a good egg for breakfast, but more on the weekend that during the week, what's your breakfast habit?
Sylvain Charlebois 16:03
Well, I train in the morning, so I-, and frankly, I like to run or do whatever I need to do on an empty stomach. To be honest, my metabolism is incredibly slow. So, it depends. Most of the time I do eat breakfast, but midway through the morning.
Michael LeBlanc 16:20
I see.
Sylvain Charlebois 16:20
But coffee is a must right after I get up for sure. So, but the reason why we wanted to release this study about breakfasts that we've been talking about breakfast for kids in school, and we thought well, why don't-, what about adulthood, I mean, what, what do people actually do when they grow up with breakfast is breakfast still the most important meal of the day.
Michael LeBlanc 16:46
57.2% of Canadians eat breakfast every day, Newfoundland and Labrador leads the country at 69% and BC at 52%. Maybe they're all up training, they're all outdoorsy type people and then-, then the survey, very interesting survey course. This is Caddle, did this survey for you and you surveyed big, huge-, I mean, it's not surprising, because you're it's a pretty broad subject. 9165 Canadians. So, this is very definitive. So, if you're a brand listening to this podcast, you know, get all over this research it-, you know, when you talk to 9000 people, it's pretty definitive.
Sylvain Charlebois 17:23
Yeah, exactly.
Michael LeBlanc 17:24
You broke it down by the generations. Gen Z-
Sylvain Charlebois 17:28
Generational differences are pretty interesting. What you-, don't you-, don't you think?
Michael LeBlanc 17:33
Well, I think it's lifestyle more than generational. I mean, if you're a Gen Z, you're on the go. You're doing whatever. 48% if your greatest generation-
Sylvain Charlebois 17:40
It's the snacking generation. Yeah, absolutely. Then the three-meal institution is kind of fading away with the young-, with the younger crowd.
Michael LeBlanc 17:48
Yeah, I don't know, I think the greatest Gen, which for demographics is kind of like the folks who would be very, very senior. Well, what the hell else they got to do, they're gonna sit around and have breakfast every day.
Sylvain Charlebois 18:00
Come on, they have tons of stuff to do.
Michael LeBlanc 18:02
Well, they do. But they also have time for breakfast. They don't have to catch the subway to get into work, Right. So that didn't really-
Sylvain Charlebois 18:08
I just wrote a piece for a magazine for the elderly. It's coffee toasts, and they're good to go. That's 81% of that population, but kids, kids they just did. They're different. Absolutely and the food industry will have to-, to adapt, but it is adapting, of course, but the 24-hour breakfast is not going to go away. I think we're going to continue to see more chains offering breakfast all day long, absolutely and breakfast the cheapest meal of the day, yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 18:13
And very nutritious. Like, you can't, it's hard to get more nutrition than packed into an egg, right? Egg is very nutritious.
Sylvain Charlebois 18:45
Exactly.
Michael LeBlanc 18:46
Not a significant difference in gender. But what-
Sylvain Charlebois 18:49
Is Burnbrae paying us now or-?
Michael LeBlanc 18:53
I just said eggs. I didn't say them. I just said eggs and they're not by the way, just so we're clear.
Sylvain Charlebois 18:58
Exactly.
Michael LeBlanc 18:59
They are-, we're not-, not that we wouldn't take their money by the way. So, Margaret, if you're listening, you know, feel free. What people eat for breakfast. So, take us down the list, what number one thing people eat for breakfast-
Sylvain Charlebois 19:10
Toast and bagels.
Michael LeBlanc 19:12
Toast or bagels. Number two, eggs. A protein source, did you actually ask people with a protein source, that sounds like-
Sylvain Charlebois 19:20
No because it was bacon, sausage, ham, whatever and it does vary of course, and a lot of people do eat breakfast at home. It's not like you're at the restaurant. So yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 19:29
Cold, cold pizza comes in at 6%, I see that, actually you asked leftovers from dinner but I amusing that-
Michael LeBlanc 19:35
Well I did today actually. I had breakfast-
Sylvain Charlebois 19:35
Leftovers from dinner at 6%, that's funny, isn't it? Like how many people do you know that eat breakfast using last night's leftovers really?
Sylvain Charlebois 19:42
I was thinking like college kids or something but you’re a college kid
Michael LeBlanc 19:55
I had breakfast a little later, so I had-, had some pasta for breakfast, I guess, anyway. So all right, well, great research, we'll put a link to it in the show notes.
Sylvain Charlebois 20:03
You know, I mean-, did you see the coffee differences between generations?
Michael LeBlanc 20:07
No, no, tell me.
Sylvain Charlebois 20:08
I was shocked. So, the Greatest Generation, Boomers drink a lot of coffee. As when you get young, oh, my goodness, it's 30%. Very low. So, it means that-, that's the pumpkin pies, pumpkin spice generation, you know, I actually was having a debate with a Gen Z the other day, and I said, and she said-
Michael LeBlanc 20:08
I'm sorry to hear that
Sylvain Charlebois 20:11
Pumpkin spice. That's coffee, isn't it?
Michael LeBlanc 20:15
Oh, my God.
Sylvain Charlebois 20:29
And then I said, no, I'm sorry. It's-, it's liquid candy.
Michael LeBlanc 20:41
Boy, I you know, again, I have to ask you if that's a stage of life, or a generational change, because if it's a generational change, the coffee business is in big trouble, but if it's just a change of lifestyle-
Sylvain Charlebois 20:55
Listen, I just talk-, I talked to about 60 kids this spring fourth year class and I don't know if you remember your days at University of McGill. Were you drinking coffee when you were a student?
Michael LeBlanc 21:07
Yeah, absolutely.
Sylvain Charlebois 21:08
And most people did too, right?
Michael LeBlanc 21:10
Yeah, sure.
Sylvain Charlebois 21:11
Yea, well, today it's-, that's not the case at all. But-
Michael LeBlanc 21:13
Didn't have Red Bull when I was going.
Sylvain Charlebois 21:14
Yeah, so about-, I actually did ask a question about 20% of my students actually drank coffee.
Michael LeBlanc 21:19
Let's leave that there and in fact, let's get to our chitting and chatting and with Colleen.
Sylvain Charlebois 21:25
4/20 -
Michael LeBlanc 21:25
For her regular drop in let's dim the lights, chill the ham and have a conversation about cannabis for 4/20. Colleen. Welcome back for your regular appearance here. You're a friend of the pod. Welcome back to the Food Professor. How are you?
Colleen Martin 21:42
Thank you. Yes, I'm great. Thanks for having me again.
Sylvain Charlebois 21:45
Hey, Coleen.
Michael LeBlanc 21:46
Let's, uh, thanks for being on as-, as we were telling our audience at the beginning of the show, it's 4/20 coming up in a day or two. So, we're celebrating, we're celebrating all things devil's lettuce and cannabis.
Sylvain Charlebois 22:00
Especially Michael, Michael celebrates a lot.
Michael LeBlanc 22:03
So we asked you to go out, you being Caddle, to go out and do a bit of research and particularly focus on edibles and what's happening in the market, are people going up, down or sideways, what kind of edibles they like. So, you've produced, for us, some proprietary information. So why don't you first of all, start telling the people that how you got the information and how you go and collect this information, specifically and then let's-, let's-, take us through it, take us-, take us through what you found.
Colleen Martin 22:32
Sounds good, we work with a lot of cannabis brands. So, we do have a very well developed audience on our panel of people who consume cannabis in different forms, THC, CBD only, etc. What we did here was run a couple of daily surveys a couple in March, and then some later in the results referred to a couple of months previous, but essentially, this goes out to our daily panel and of those cannabis consumers, we would focus it down and ask questions for the people who are specifically exhibiting the behavior that we want to ask them questions about.
Michael LeBlanc 23:10
So before, before we get too shocked, I guess it's-, it's up and down, which kind of nets to be about the same and of course, when we're talking about this, do you make the distinction when you ask the question, legal versus black market, I guess, do you make that distinction in your-, in the way you ask the question, or is this-, is this all-
Colleen Martin 23:10
So if you're not a cannabis user, then we exclude you from the results and then we only focus on the people that do consume. So, this march in honor of 4/20, we did ask some folks a couple of weeks ago, I guess, oh, my gosh, it's already the 17th of April. So, a couple of weeks ago, we, we asked some about 1900 and change panel members about their-, these are cannabis users, what's their usage, like has their usage increased, remain the same or decreased and we found that almost 20%, 19% of people say that their usage has have increased in the past 12 months. 62% so that remained the same and the same 19% say they have-, their consumption has decreased.
Colleen Martin 24:11
We can.
Michael LeBlanc 24:12
You can.
Colleen Martin 24:13
We can and we do-, we have worked with-, certain cannabis brands to understand the scope and extent of the black market ongoing, like how much of it is being purchased through black versus, you know, like-
Michael LeBlanc 24:25
Legal.
Colleen Martin 24:26
Retail, yeah, right. Legal.
Michael LeBlanc 24:28
Illegal, let's say. Illegal and legal.
Colleen Martin 24:29
Illegal versus legal.
Michael LeBlanc 24:30
Tell us what it is.
Colleen Martin 24:32
And we do ask those questions, but not in this viewpoint. We're just trying to understand in the scope of this discussion, edibles, beverages, what people's preferences are flavors, things like that. So, we've got some cool information for you there.
Michael LeBlanc 24:47
Sylvain, when you-, when you think about edibles and cannabis, I think, I'm of two minds. One is, as you and I've talked before, the edibles kind of got off to a slow start because the government really wanted them to not be very potent because they were worried about, you know, kids getting a hold of it, or would they just wanted people to adjust, but at the same time, edibles have a lot to do with flavor. So how do you-, how do you square the circle in these two things in other words, if I'm gonna buy a cannabis drink product I'm gonna buy from a retail cannabis place. I don't know what, what somebody's making up in their basement and serving me cannabis, but yeah, people do say listen, you know, with the 10 milligrams, it doesn't really have that kind of impact that they'd like, how do you think about squaring those two things, and what's been your observation over the past couple of years?
Sylvain Charlebois 25:34
Well, I mean, basically, because of the cannabis act, I'm not sure the food industry or anyone out there has been pushed to think about flavors and marketing. I mean, let's face it, the cannabis sect is very restrictive from a marketing perspective or anything and so the edible market is still immature, incredibly immature in Canada and so you're what you're talking about is-, is Cannabis Act 2.0, probably 3.0 because right now, as you know, the act itself is under revision because it's close to five years now and we don't know exactly what-, what to expect but-, I-, we have actually submitted a report asking the act to be more I would say, lenient towards licensing of plants for edibles. I'm the case right now. I mean, it's just so restrictive, you have to build a 15-, $20 million plant before we even get-, you receive a license from Health Canada. So that's why the-, your-, your question about the illicit market is quite relevant for edibles, in particular, because we still believe it's-, it's quite big out there.
Michael LeBlanc 26:49
Now, for context clean since you do some work in this space. My understanding, historically, over the past couple of years has been that flower is about 50% of the market and edibles and other alternatives, tinctures or whatever are the other 50%. You didn't specifically ask this in this survey, but is that your-, still your sense of how people consume. There's actually a little bit in here because you talk about-
Colleen Martin 27:12
Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 27:13
Rolling joints or pre rolls, which-, which are quite popular I hear, but talk about that for a little bit.
Colleen Martin 27:18
If this-, this data here, we asked when-, when you do use cannabis products, what's your preferred consumption method, out of the same group of people, 25% of people prefer edibles and you know, the roll, pre roll vape pen vaporizer kind of go in that top five and beverage comes in at 6%. Now the work that we're doing, proprietary work we're doing with bev-, with cannabis brands, you know, beverages are difficult because the taste is a little wonky there with the THC or CBD additive, so there's a lot of movements in terms of loyalty and trying there-, people are pretty brand promiscuous at this stage. but the beverages because of the early-, early products to the market weren't very nice tasting. So they're having a problem with adoption there, but edibles are very-, are the most popular way to consume.
Michael LeBlanc 28:08
I was I think that's a big change, right, Sylvain, because when I-, when I roll up the numbers, get it what I'm doing here, you know, when I-, when I roll up the numbers between pre roll and roll your own joint, I get 24% versus edible 25%. And there's-, there's obviously a bunch of other things, but I was kind of shocked about that, like if joints only are a quarter of the business. That means the edibles have really started to take a bit of sway more than I would have anticipated the-, did that surprise you, Sylvain?
Sylvain Charlebois 28:38
No, not at all. I mean, I mean, it's pretty simple. The body is not designed to inhale drugs. It is designed to ingest drugs and you saw that-, we're seeing that in the US as the cannabis market matures, you do see this-, this-, this shift towards more edibles, but right now in Canada, I don't think we have the laws in place to allow the market to naturally make that shift. It's going to take a while and so-, and I do-, I did see the edible market as-, as a-, as a tremendous opportunity for the food industry, but right now, I would say most, most manufacturers-, most companies have just said you know what we're going to-, we're going to wait-, we're going to wait on the sidelines for a while until things a little-, are-, become a little bit looser.
Michael LeBlanc 29:33
So, Colleen let's-, let's go through some numbers because I think-, I found really interesting gummies rule but at the same time from a beverage perspective, I was a bit surprised. So take us through some of the numbers that you-, that you found both on the daily and some of the research you did with us just so we read the groundwork and we'll put a link in the show notes to this on your site because this is proprietary, right, so people can go look at-, look at them.
Colleen Martin 29:55
You can download the result.
Michael LeBlanc 29:56
Right on.
Colleen Martin 29:57
We can help you sus out some of the finer details regarding demographics, absolutely. So back in December, we asked about 1800 people what type of cannabis edibles would you like to purchase, would you like to, would you like to see, right, because you've got markets like California that are very well developed, lots of different types, lots of flavors, lots of you know, like partnering with brands and you know, CBD, Coca Cola type thing is in the works in the US because of how far down the path they are in certain-, in certain states.
Michael LeBlanc 30:27
So not-, not so much-, not so much in the say-, province of Quebec, for example, which is pretty, you know, yeah.
Colleen Martin 30:34
But the wish list-, and this is a "select all that apply". So we listed these things and people selected everything that they'd be interested in purchasing. Gummies was number one at 42.1. And that is reflective of its popularity and its ability to use a five milligram, it's very easy to, you know, to dose and the accuracy is quite good and the repeatability is quite good with the gummy, chocolate is two at 24.4, cookies 20.3%, brownies 20%, caramel chews, mint gum, all in that 11 to 12% range, cereal bars or like a protein bar 10.2% and lozenges, all other is 39.8 I'd love to know what those others are, because that pretty much is a very exhaustive list everything put in to consume THC, but yeah, it's people are-, the demand is there for variety.
Sylvain Charlebois 31:26
I think people would think about squares and muffins.
Michael LeBlanc 31:30
I know there was a big push for a while on taking nonalcoholic wine or beer and infusing them with cannabis, because you'd get you know, depending on how much cannabis you'd infused with it relatively speaking, you could get the social, social benefits of drinking an alcohol flavored like product or you can you know, go-, go do whatever but I didn't really see it come up like carbonated really rules right carbonated coffee and tea. So, is that surprising?
Colleen Martin 32:01
So when you talk about beverages, not at all, like when you talk about the beverages that people have purchased in the last three months again, this is select all that apply, a sample of 15, 1542 that was asked in February, 27.2% Say carbonated drinks because again like you're saying, Michael like in a social situation if you're looking at a vodka soda type situation then a carbonated drink is perfect for that event right and as we know if you've ever tried a non-alcoholic wine, not great, lackluster, so you know it's-, it's really hard to mess up a vodka soda type drink, but as we saw in what their preferences are, 6% of people, only, are interested in those-, in those beverages. So out of that 6%, you know, this is-, this is how it rolls in terms of the formatting, so coffee is second that 19.6, tea at 17.9, drink mixes so I'm assuming like a margarita mix or a mule or something like that would be at 16.3, ready to drink and then non-carbonated drinks like a water like there's a lot of work in the US going on right now in terms of CBD water which has benefits and other at 36
Sylvain Charlebois 33:12
The two main cannabinoids are-, are THC and CBD and I've always believed like for the beverage industry CBD actually has a lot of potential. Is-, did you actually look into that, separating both cannabinoids and see what product would actually fit better with either one?
Colleen Martin 33:33
We can do that. Absolutely. We do a lot of studies that breakout non psychoactive and psychoactive cannabinoids to understand because in the larger market, the total serviceable market for a CBD product is much, much, much, much larger than a THC. So when you think about health and wellness and inflammation reduction and mood stabilizing like CBD has a lot of great benefits not only for humans but also for animals so when you think of the size of that market, that's where you know the Coca Cola's and ConAgra is and the big companies are looking at how do they incorporate or even blow out and expand into categories that are-, that are in a wellness angle with-, with a regulated CBD additive.
Sylvain Charlebois 34:16
In terms of-, of research, have you-, how many times in the last five years have you dug into the cannabis space, and have you seen any progress that-, that is-, that is note-, noteworthy.
Colleen Martin 34:30
A lot of the research we have done in this space is regarding real estate placement. So we do work with Environics and we do work with their-, like how-, where do you put stores, so we do a lot of work around, you know how far people will drive and we do have a question in here about asking where they shop for cannabis and where do they prefer and you know, 46% say the place that they normally go and only 19% of people say they would go to a new store. So, this has changed a lot because there was a lot of brand promiscuity as people were kind of understanding. You know, it's when you go into these stores, the assortments are always changing, you're getting something different all the time.
Colleen Martin 35:12
Core-, the core part of the assortment is-, is-, is very variable, like there, you go in, there's new drinks all the time, because the market is expanding so quickly. So, it's-, it's kind of once you find a place that's reliable, and has the stuff that you like, whether it being gone the next week, because there's some new product, people will go back. So we're starting to see a little bit of stabilization and there's so many stores out there. Now, if you're in Fire Flower, you're gonna go to that Fire Flower that's, you know, within two kilometers your home all the time, if that's what you want to do and, you know, we didn't address online here, but it's online to very large portion of the market as well. I would not want to like-, it's a very tumultuous-
Michael LeBlanc 35:50
Yeah.
Colleen Martin 35:51
And fragmented and confusing space right now, if you're a retailer, and if you're a brand and if you're an LP, right, like-, there's so much change, and yet it's going so slowly in terms of what they can do with the commute with the consumer, that it's just a very volatile space to be in right now. As a business owner.
Michael LeBlanc 36:14
Well, I think-, I think to your point, Sylvain, it's less volatile in provinces like Nova Scotia, where the province owns the distribution, their focus is-, as in talking to them and spending time in their stores, is the customer experience, like the shopping experience because they-, they, you know, they are not dealing with the same kind of dynamics, just like in the province of Quebec, right, they own the distribution. Other places are way more dynamic, Ontario, for example, to a degree and many of the other provinces. So anyway, very interesting.
Sylvain Charlebois 36:45
Listen, Colleen, great insight. Great-, great report. Very timely, it's-, 4/20 is happening this weekend. So, I think a lot of people will have a very interesting weekend indeed. Thank you for joining us today, Colleen.
Colleen Martin 37:01
Thank you so much. I love joining you guys every month. It's a highlight.
Michael LeBlanc 37:05
We're back everybody.
Sylvain Charlebois 37:07
Great conversation with Colleen.
Michael LeBlanc 37:08
As always. So, every month we're going to be asking her to go and for Caddle producing proprietary research for us so and so that's the results. Only-, available only if you're listening to The Food Professor podcast. All right, last couple of things. I want to talk about survival food kits. So used-, I mean, on the one hand, you know
Sylvain Charlebois 37:32
You saw that in the news?
Michael LeBlanc 37:33
I did, I'm a big fan of those by the way, like do you-, do you have a Go bag? Like the Go bag at home?
Sylvain Charlebois 37:39
No.
Michael LeBlanc 37:40
You know, like suddenly there's a flood or a zombie apocalypse or something happens and-, and-
Sylvain Charlebois 37:46
Seriously, come on. Oh, you're in Mississauga. So-
Michael LeBlanc 37:49
Anything could happen here my friend.
Sylvain Charlebois 37:50
A plane could crash in your backyard any time, but you're ready. You've got five barbecues or something?
Michael LeBlanc 37:56
Well, they're a little hard to take. I've got a lot of Kraft dinner though, but Costco in this case, was selling these-, basically they're MREs, Meals, Ready to Eat that the military uses. It last forever, nutritious. I think it's fundamentally a good idea to have. I've got a box of that or a case of that stuff. It lasts for 20 years, and you know, like the government in a big crisis. You know, it takes a while for the government to react, and I think it's a good idea. What do you think?
Sylvain Charlebois 38:25
I don't know. Like I've got grass and got rabbits in the backyard. So, I'm good to go.
Michael LeBlanc 38:32
Again, you can't smoke marijuana, though, your way to feast.
Sylvain Charlebois 38:35
That's right. Exactly. No, listen, I actually-
Michael LeBlanc 38:38
If you've got a Go like you live in a place where there's severe weather.
Sylvain Charlebois 38:41
A few years ago, we did survey Canadians, not with Caddle, I think it was with, I think it was with Angus Reed and we did ask the question about-, about survival kits, because they were-, for many years, there were rumors about a pandemic, which eventually happened, of course, and there'll be another one, by the way. In those days, of course, we're encouraging people to actually have food for at least three days.
Michael LeBlanc 39:07
Sure.
Sylvain Charlebois 39:07
And so we actually estimated that 5 to 7% of households do have a survival food kit of some sort, to help them go through three to five days at the very least. So, there is a market for that.
Michael LeBlanc 39:25
And I would bet that that market is opened up. That's because of access. I mean, right now without Costco, I would not know where to go get such a thing, right, like an army surplus store, like Costco is a big democratizer of these big products like that. Just like gold bars, right, Costco decide-, decided to sell gold bars.
Sylvain Charlebois 39:46
I don't see that way. I actually see it from a demand side. I mean, consumers have actually embraced this so-called risk society. I mean, we're, we close schools when there's an eclipse for goodness’ sake, I mean, that's what happened in Montreal last week. We've-, we've canceled Halloween. I mean, you can feel that people manage risk very differently and they want to be prepared and so I think that the psyche around preparedness has actually completely changed due to how we perceive risk and how we manage them as well. So I think you're right, absolutely. I think Costco is the perfect retailer for that kind of stuff, but other retailers have actually sold kits, similar kits. If-, if people feel more prepared buying these things, power to them. Yeah, absolutely.
Michael LeBlanc 40:38
I mean, I was stocking up on stuff back in 1999. If you remember the coming crisis for 2000.
Sylvain Charlebois 40:43
You can actually buy, and I could see you do it, you could actually buy a skid for $13,000 and you can survive for three years.
Michael LeBlanc 40:55
As long as it comes with an AR-15 rifle you can survive for three years and some-, lots of ammo.
Sylvain Charlebois 41:01
Three years my friend, yeah, we can lock you up for three years.
Michael LeBlanc 41:06
Well, I think-, I think we got to the next topic for Colleen and Caddle to go do some research on actually, while we're thinking about it though.
Sylvain Charlebois 41:13
Emergency preparedness.
Michael LeBlanc 41:14
Emergency preparedness, I think that's really a thing. News out there, just the last couple of things news out there about Red Lobster could be could-, be-, change the R with a D and you wind up with.
Sylvain Charlebois 41:25
Oh my god Red Lobsters in the Atlantic would close. Oh, wait a second, there are no Red Lobsters in the Atlantic. Oh my god.
Michael LeBlanc 41:33
You know, I was-, I was at my local
Sylvain Charlebois 41:34
Do you know how many Red Lobsters we have in Canada?
Michael LeBlanc 41:36
I-, it's not a lot. I mean, talk about a name.
Sylvain Charlebois 41:39
25. That's I mean, do you remember how they came into Canada?
Michael LeBlanc 41:43
Yeah, that was a big deal. Red Lobster was a big deal. Like and it was-
Sylvain Charlebois 41:46
They bought Ponderosa.
Michael LeBlanc 41:48
That's right and Ponderosa was a big deal. I used to go there for Ponderosa steaks when I was a kid, but I was at my local fishmonger here in Mississauga, which is a fantastic-, and I was saying, hey, are you guys going to carry your lobster and they're like, you know, A: it's expensive, because you gotta have tanks and stuff like that and B: you know, the price is so high.
Michael LeBlanc 42:05
Now, even at the dock, that-, it's kind of priced out. So, if you're Red Lobster, and your brand is basically now associated with an extremely, you know, an extremely expensive product. I guess it's expensive-, it's so expensive, because a lot of this is going, you know, is it a supply or demand, so then the supply side, it seems okay to demand, there seems to be a lot of demand from international demand for places like China is that what's driving up lobster prices?
Sylvain Charlebois 42:05
Oh, yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois 42:30
I think-, I mean-, well I was talking to a few reporters today about this, I mean, procurement in the seafood industry is a nightmare. You have no idea what's going to happen. So, lobster prices are way up, crab prices are way down. Next year it could be the opposite. Like how do you actually manage your costs, when it's always up and down, and up and down and you got scallops, you got salmon you got-, I mean it's just complicated. If you're a steakhouse, you got the trifecta to manage it's much easier. That's one thing and of course, these products are really pricey and so price points are typically higher and when food inflation is an issue, people will just walk away and let's be honest here, when you walk into a Red Lobster, you gotta like the '80s. You know?
Michael LeBlanc 43:18
Well, if you're-, if you walk into the Red Lobster, you're thinking about-, you're probably bringing your family and you're thinking about an affordable treat, I would say, and, you know, unfortunately, I'm not sure even lobster still on the menu because it would be $100.
Sylvain Charlebois 43:30
But nowadays, if your-, if your product doesn't align with values and tastes, that is linked to millennials and Gen Zs, you are done and that's kind of what's going on with Red Lobster.
Michael LeBlanc 43:45
I would say something about Red Lobster. I mean, if lobsters coming off the coast, whether it's Cape Cod down in the US or whether it's coming off our coast I have more faith in the people that are actually not slaves making the product like so you know, I don't eat a lot of shrimp anymore for example, right, you know, I switch I'll have one lobster instead of you know go to Red Lobster.
Sylvain Charlebois 44:04
So, they are 18, I think-, I believe there are 18 or lobsters in Ontario and all the rest are in the prairies where there's plenty of ocean.
Michael LeBlanc 44:14
Well they don't get a lot of it I guess.
Sylvain Charlebois 44:16
So, they tried in BC, they failed and they and I don't know if they tried in the Atlantic but they I mean people buy lobster at Canadian Tire here, like seriously. One last thing, one last thing, shout out to mustard farmers. Sudbury Canada has saved the yellow mustard; they did discontinue according to some chats I had with a few employees at Subway they discontinued yellow mustard but it's back since last week.
Michael LeBlanc 44:46
Power to the people, power to the people. Since we're on to one last thing, let's do one more thing. What do you think and what do you think about pizza at Tim Hortons? Pizza, my God. Like, let's not call it innovative because it's like the most readily available product, you think it'll be successful for them. I know they're trying to shift day parts and do things like that but what do you think?
Sylvain Charlebois 45:04
So, when I-, when I spoke to people at Subway about the yellow mustard and I-, I asked them, Why didn't you make any announcements about discontinuing yellow mustard, and-, and of course I responded to my own question. Well, franchises just don't brag about when they discontinue products, it's going to be the same with pizza at Tim Hortons and a few months from now. That's what I think. What do you think, do you think it's a good idea, I think it's an awful idea.
Michael LeBlanc 45:36
Well.
Sylvain Charlebois 45:37
I mean, they're-, back to that plant-based stuff. It's not part of their core thing. I mean-
Michael LeBlanc 45:43
Well, it's their strategy to fill out. I'd say 3.1.
Sylvain Charlebois 45:45
They want-, they want to get people for lunch and dinner. I get that. I get that, but seriously, look at what, if McDonald's can't make it happen.
Michael LeBlanc 45:54
Yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois 45:55
Tim Hortons can't either, I'm sorry.
Michael LeBlanc 45:57
I would only say maybe we get somebody from Tim Hortons on. They've tested it and they wouldn't be rolling it out if there wasn't already some sense of consumer adoption because when I read the article, they said we started with spicy, people didn't want spicy. So let's assume that a company that big has tested and said you know what, we think this will have a chance of success, so.
Sylvain Charlebois 46:16
It's a complimentary item. I see it as like a-, like a group sort of savior item, because you'll-, you'll get a bunch of people coming in for sandwiches and soup and oh, by the way, I like-, I want to eat pizza.
Michael LeBlanc 46:29
Remember, remember when McDonald's did it and they couldn't fit it through the drive thru window?
Sylvain Charlebois 46:33
I know.
Michael LeBlanc 46:34
Hopefully they-, hopefully they get that figured out.
Sylvain Charlebois 46:36
And that was McDonald’s, yeah?
Michael LeBlanc 46:39
Hey, listen. This stuff is complex and we're all people too and we wish everybody-, wish everybody the best of luck and congratulations, if you're a lobster fisherman, you're gonna actually make some money. So God bless you.
Sylvain Charlebois 46:50
Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. Or maybe you should start your own franchise, you know.
Michael LeBlanc 46:55
Maybe, maybe. Maybe. All right, well, this has been an action-packed episode, next week, you may have seen in the social media, Sylvain, you promoted Uncle Bob's popcorn this week, we actually push that to next week. So we will have Tanner
Sylvain Charlebois 47:11
Popcorn.
Michael LeBlanc 47:11
We actually, as if we rehearsed this, but we actually said, let me have some popcorn on Saturday and see if indeed, and he makes some pretty big, bold promises about the quality of the product. So let me I'm going to test it on the weekend and we'll see and you know how I'm gonna test it
Sylvain Charlebois 47:28
You don't need any dental floss.
Michael LeBlanc 47:29
I'm going to watch the movie Food Inc. 2. I'm gonna watch that on the weekend. So, we'll do a little movie review next week for Food Inc. 2.
Sylvain Charlebois 47:39
Yes, that's a good idea. Actually. Yes.
Michael LeBlanc 47:40
You watch it this weekend. I will watch it this weekend. How about, how about that and then we'll talk about it next week.
Sylvain Charlebois 47:44
Cool.
Michael LeBlanc 47:45
Almost like we plan these things, but there you go. I'm Michael LeBlanc podcaster, media entrepreneur, consumer growth consultant, keynote speaker and you are?
Sylvain Charlebois 47:55
I'm The Food Professor, Sylvain Charlebois.
Michael LeBlanc 47:59
Alright, everybody safe travels. Enjoy your week and we'll talk to you again next week.
Sylvain Charlebois 48:04
Take care.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
edibles, cannabis, years, Canada, big, cbd, food, question, day, breakfast, market, product, Red Lobster, pretty, numbers, government, lobster, coffee, drink, thc