In the latest episode of "The Food Professor" podcast, we have the privilege of hosting Tanner Townsend from Uncle Bob Popcorn in Ontario. Broadcasting from Dallas, Texas, Michael also touches on his participation in a book launch for "Leaders Leap" with Steve Dennis and plans for a barbecue tour in Austin. The episode shifts to cover significant industry news, starting with a new study on food safety that Sylvain finds alarming; we delve into the issue of "shrinkflation" in grocery stores, comparing tactics on the shelf and consumer reactions internationally. Additionally, the episode addresses the Gate Gourmet Canada strike and the implications of California's new $20/hr minimum wage law.
In the latest episode of "The Food Professor" podcast, we have the privilege of hosting Tanner Townsend from Uncle Bob Popcorn in Ontario. He provides unique insights into the intricacies and passion behind the family-run popcorn business, making for a fascinating discussion.
Michael shares his excitement about moderating a panel with industry expert Stuart Samuel at the upcoming SIAL Montreal innovation food show. Broadcasting from Dallas, Texas, Michael also touches on his participation in a book launch for "Leaders Leap" with Steve Dennis and plans for a barbecue tour in Austin. The episode shifts to cover significant industry news, starting with a new study on food safety that Sylvain finds alarming; we delve into the issue of shrinkflation in grocery stores, comparing tactics on the shelf and consumer reactions internationally.
Additionally, the episode addresses the Gate Gourmet Canada strike and the implications of California's new $20/hr minimum wage law.
Food Safety Research
https://www.dal.ca/sites/agri-food/research/food-safety.html
Uncle Bob's
https://www.ontariopoppingcorn.com/
Steve Dennis's new book
https://www.indigo.ca/en-ca/leaders-leap-transforming-your-company-at-the-speed-of-disruption/9781637560297.html
Michael LeBlanc 00:04
Welcome to The Food Professor podcast presented by Caddle. Season 4, episode 30. I'm Michael LeBlanc.
Sylvain Charlebois 00:10
And I'm The Food Professor, Sylvain Charlebois.
Michael LeBlanc 00:14
Our guest on this episode is Tanner Townsend, part of the family of farmers and food entrepreneurs behind Ontario's Uncle Bob Popcorn. A bespoke best in class made in Ontario popcorn company. I know you're a fan of farmers, Sylvain, are you a fan of popcorn?
Sylvain Charlebois 00:28
Well, who's not, like seriously?
Michael LeBlanc 00:30
Right, right, right.
Sylvain Charlebois 00:31
You just bought some popcorn from Uncle Bob's didn't you.
Michael LeBlanc 00:35
I-, as soon as-, we did the interview two weeks ago, as soon as I got off the interview, I'm a big, big fan of popcorn. I like my popcorn with my movies. I ordered a bunch of popcorn, and I can tell you it's amazing. Like we had-, we had some on the weekend.
Sylvain Charlebois 00:50
What's-, so the-, he's going to be talking about his teeth, strategy, is that working?
Michael LeBlanc 00:58
Well, he talks about, and so we'll get into it with the interview, he talks about the technical because we were kind of curious. What's the difference between their popcorn and everybody else's?
Sylvain Charlebois 01:06
Yeah, exactly, yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 01:07
You'll hear the technical explanation but the-, but the visual thing is it's white, white, white, white popcorn like theater popcorn. So, when you pour the butter over it, it looks amazing. It really comes in-, anyway, listen, it was fantastic popcorn. So, I can tell you that everything he says in that interview turns out you know from a technical perspective to be fantastic popcorn. So, there you go, have a listen, when-, when-.
Sylvain Charlebois 01:31
I'm gonna have to order some.
Michael LeBlanc 01:33
You do. It's really-, it's-, it's substantially different. Let me-, let me put it that way. It's substantially different.
Sylvain Charlebois 01:37
Right.
Michael LeBlanc 01:38
Like a meaningful difference from the run-of-the-mill popcorn. So anyway, there you go. Get ready for that because it's a-, it's a great, great interview. Now excitement is building for us at SIAL in Montreal. It's coming up, geez, in like a month, right, less than a month.
Sylvain Charlebois 01:52
I know.
Michael LeBlanc 01:52
We'll both be there together. We're officially podcasting at the show. I'll be moderating a panel on food and grocery innovation with Stewart Samuel, Director of Retail Futures at IGD. Stewart is flying all the way in from Vancouver, he travels around the world. Last time I talked to Stewart, we were together where we were at a grocery shop in-, in Las Vegas. So, are you moderating a panel, or are you on a panel?
Sylvain Charlebois 02:18
I'm doing a bunch of stuff. So, I'll be moderating a panel but also presenting as well, and I think twice though, with two different events, and I'm also going to be part of, of celebrations in relation to the poutine's 60th anniversary. So I think there's gonna be an announcement soon, so stay tuned.
Michael LeBlanc 02:45
It's gonna be a busy week.
Sylvain Charlebois 02:45
Also, I have a-, yes, that's right. Yeah. So, there's lots going on, for sure. At SIAL, and you and I are going to be incredibly busy.
Michael LeBlanc 02:48
Yeah. Looking forward to it. Very excited. The folks I talked to the folks from Crosby, they were on the episode a couple of weeks ago, they're gonna be there at the booth. So, we're gonna touch base with them and a whole bunch of other people. So that will be amazing. Now, if I sound a bit different to the years of the listeners, I'm in Dallas, Texas, helping my good friend and Remarkable Retail podcast partner, Steve Dennis at his book launch tonight. He's got an event at the SMU, SM University, and then we're doing a barbecue.
Sylvain Charlebois 03:22
Wow, what's the name of Steve's book?
Michael LeBlanc 03:25
Leaders Leap. Leaders Leap.
Sylvain Charlebois 03:27
Leaders Leap.
Michael LeBlanc 03:28
And we're doing-, as I said, we're doing a launch event at SMU. It's available to purchase in the States, early May, preorder today in Canada, and then it ships on or about May 3. It's a fantastic book. I read it a couple times already. It talks about this, this innovation gap between the pace of change and innovation. It's-, you need to just take bigger, more bolder steps. So, it's-, it's not necessarily a retail book. It's a great book. I recommend it to everybody, and once we do that, we're off to a barbecue pilgrimage over to Austin, Texas. We're going to-, over to Austin we're going to Franklin's, Goldie's, Yeti, Mill Scale, Meat Church we're gonna go-
Sylvain Charlebois 04:04
If you were to go on a barbecue pilgrimage, Texas is probably the place to do that.
Michael LeBlanc 04:10
You know, and Dallas. I've never been to Dallas before, so the people are great, and I haven't seen any of those long horn cattle. I guess they come out at night like raccoons. I don't know. I haven't seen them in downtown Texas yet, but I guess they come out like the raccoons in Toronto they come out at night, I haven't seen any of them. Looking forward to that.
Sylvain Charlebois 04:26
We got raccoons.
Michael LeBlanc 04:30
Alright, well, let's get into the news. So, let's start with a new study on food safety. Now you sent this to me, and you described in the findings that you found them alarming. I'm a bit skeptical, actually, of the reported findings. So basically, if I could summarize, then I'm going to ask you to get into a bit more of the details. Basically, people are saying they're-, they're keeping food longer, and they're reporting a higher incidence of what they perceive as food sickness or food poisoning. It kind of battles against this idea that we know that things like best before dates aren't really about, you know, deadly after date. So what do you-, what do you make of all this, is this perception or-, or what-, what-, what has got you upset about or concerned about the results?
Sylvain Charlebois 05:16
Well concerned-, I mean, we've been asked this question many times the last couple of years by my media mainly, do you have any data on food safety and, and how people are assessing risk at home due to higher food prices, and we just didn't have anything, and we thought it would be a good idea to basically go out and ask with the support of Caddle, of course, and so we got some interesting results. So, I think the most interesting result is the 58%. 58%, are actually enticed to actually go beyond the best before date now due to higher food prices, so it means that the way they manage risks has-, has changed a little bit and the issue about illness is-, of course, is debatable, because we don't know for sure, and they don't know for sure they got sick because of a certain food product, but you can tell what was interesting, though, is that you could see that the younger generations. I wasn't surprised. I don't know if you were surprised, but I wouldn't surprise to see the Gen Z and millennials test the safety of their food a little bit more, just because for two reasons. One, of course they're younger. I mean, they can bear a little more-
Sylvain Charlebois 06:30
It's not going to kill me, I'm young and healthy, is right.
Sylvain Charlebois 06:34
Yeah. What's not gonna kill me, it's gonna be a stronger sort of thing and of course, the fact that those two particular generations are under tremendous pressure, economically, the millennials are in their economic prime. They're-, they're mortgage to death, they have debt and so, so my I'm not-, I'm not-, I wasn't entirely surprised to see, to me, it's more about comparing and not just the numbers, but to me, I actually do think that food inflation or higher food prices have actually changed many things in terms of how people assess risks and manage risk at home, basically, and they're a little bit more careful not just buying calories or buying nutrition.
Sylvain Charlebois 07:15
Truth is that they're buying assets, they-, they bought freezers, they bought a fridge to conserve food a little bit longer and so those-, so the message that came out of the report, or that is coming out of the report is not all negative. It's actually could be good. So we're wasting less food, people are more careful. That may explain why, again, Stats Can today released some new retail numbers. I don't know if you looked at them, you probably because you're on the road, probably not, but again-, again, food sales per capita per month has gone down from 248 to 245 again in February, so you can see that people are just more careful to going elsewhere beyond the grocery store to get food.
Michael LeBlanc 08:00
You know, I think we should be precise with our language, and I'm sure you guys were in the cattle study because there's best before dates, and then there's expiry dates. Did you make that distinction in the survey?
Sylvain Charlebois 08:12
Yeah. So, in the report, you can see that we don't really mention expiry dates, because expiry dates, you're not-, you're not even, it's not even debatable. You're not supposed to be eating or consuming products, beyond the expiry dates, but expiring food, leave some space for people to judge, you know, so you got the best before date as an indicator the best before they will be an indicator doesn't mean bad after, right. And so that's basically-
Michael LeBlanc 08:41
I mean, I just, I just had Kraft dinner from-, I just had Kraft dinner from 2019, and it was-, the flavor, the flavor wasn't on point, which is what they say, but the it was fine, but the flavor was a little dry, and you know, but it was fine to consume. So.
Sylvain Charlebois 08:49
Well, I mean, the food industry wants you and I to eat food at their optimal state. My guess, when-, when I look at the 50% of all the data we came up with, I actually do think that people are kind of looking at best before dates a little bit differently and I-, and clearly the costs of food has actually triggered that.
Michael LeBlanc 09:18
Yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois 09:19
That's the kind of breeding them.
Michael LeBlanc 09:21
Yeah, that would be the catalyst, for sure. For sure. For sure. Interesting. Interesting. So there's a mix-, it's kind of a mixed bag of-, of results. In other words, we actually want people to do some of these things, you know, not be so concerned about best before dates, but and-, on the negative side, we don't want them to be consumed. So concerned because they can't afford to buy what they want to buy.
Sylvain Charlebois 09:40
Well if you eat a product that makes you sick, it will cost you more because you're out of a paycheck, right, you have to stay at home, and you're not well and so you kind of have to, you know, you have to kind of redefine that line that allows you to either eat a product or not and so-, it's not-, and that line is not in the same place for everyone. I mean, some people can tolerate it. I mean, some people I know never get sick and some people I know they're always sick. So, it really depends who you are.
Michael LeBlanc 10:10
So, I got-, of course, got here to Texas on a-, in my case on an Air Canada flight but and I happened to be sitting up-plane. Well, you know, I was-, I was offered. It's interesting to have a long discussion, we're talking about the Gate Gourmet Canada strike here. First of all in the lounge was jammed with people lining up to eat because they realized that they weren't gonna get fed on the plane. So that was interesting. For those who can do that and then secondly, in-, in-, on the plane, and again, I was flying business class in this case, which, you know, was only a few dollars more as it turned out, I was offered a cold sandwich, and so no hot food, but I was offered a cold wrap sandwich, you know, speaking to the folks-, very nice-, folks-, I was asking-, this might this actually makes your life easier because you don't have to do all this hot service and-, and she said-
Sylvain Charlebois 11:01
Oh, exactly. Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 11:02
And she said, yeah, it does. I think initially they were like, you know, for the short hauls. It's not concerning. What is concerning is the long hauls, right. You're flying like I'm in Europe and a couple of weeks. You know, there's no food, like you're gonna get-
Sylvain Charlebois 11:14
I'm going to Berlin and Spain in a couple of weeks and yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 11:19
Pack your own, you know, pack your own. I don't know how long the strikes gonna last, but anyway, so you know, they're dealing with it very well, I would say, and they're trying to adapt, but what have you heard about the-, where the Gate Gourmet candidate strike sits, is it one of those that could linger or what do you hear?
Sylvain Charlebois 11:36
I mean, it's one of those things. I mean, nobody really thinks about airplane food and if you do think about airplane food, it's all negative, because of the quality, but these people are busy bees and-, and so yeah, the strike. I don't know about you, Michael, but it's like it's like a sugar plant on strike or, or a salt plant on strike, is there really an emergency? Can you politicize, you know, a strike related to airplane food? That's kind of what we're-, how I'm looking at it. As much as I think that these employees should be paying more. Some employees have been working there for 20 years, and they don't even make 20 bucks an hour that's-, and I know that some-, some-, some tasks are pretty simple, but still and those people, those 800 employees did sacrifice during COVID, they had their wages frozen for a while. So, I can understand why there's some-, some angst, but politically, if you're the union, you want the public to support you, but it's hard. It's hard to actually get the public to support airplane food. I'm sorry, yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 12:51
But no, Air Canada was good. They sent me an email in advance of the flight saying, hey, you're not going to have food. So, if you showed up, and you didn't see that email, and you were counting on getting fed, that would be more of a problem. So, I think-
Sylvain Charlebois 13:02
But we know you eat a lot, so.
Michael LeBlanc 13:09
Now speaking of wages, let's-, let's get to California, the other-, the other coast here, United States, so April 1st, and we knew this was coming. In fact, we talked about it before, the minimum wage for fast food workers and chains with 60 or more locations went into effect. April 1, the original raise was $22 an hour from like 14, 15 and that, but it got negotiated down to 20. It had multiple revisions and lots of pushback from the industry.
Michael LeBlanc 13:37
Now, you know, as I have been talking to people who serve that industry, it seems a couple of things are going on, one that the state is making-, I mean, there's 200,000 people who work in fast food restaurants. So, there's a lot of fast food in California. So, I think there's a political push to push out fast food I think it's just making sure that these people can earn a decent wage is $20 the right wage, I don't know and what it is driving, and we're going to talk about what looks like some increased price which is inevitable, is a bigger, faster adoption of technology, right? More kiosks, more AI in the drive thru, I think-, I don't think you can, you can operate unless you want to charge 20 bucks for a Wanna burger with the same people. Even if you can find-, I mean, there's a couple things going on here. You can't find people, still. So, technology has to be in place, but it also looks like there's some increase in the cost of the-, of the food deserving from your research.
Sylvain Charlebois 14:35
Yeah, so a firm by the name of Kalinowski Equity Research. They do monitor menu prices quite closely. So they decided to actually look at menu prices in California since April 1st, and so I think the report came out a couple of days ago, and they didn't notice that some menu prices were adjusted already, and we're not even done with April. Chains have adjusted menu prices already. And some of them have actually increased menu prices by as much as 8%.
Sylvain Charlebois 15:07
So, Wendy's, number one, at 8%. Chipotle, number two at 7.5%. That's in just a few weeks and Starbucks 7%, Taco Bell, Burger King, 3, 2%. So what I found, I was actually quite surprised that McDonald's was not on the list. Just so you know, I don't know why it wasn't on the list. I would only imagine that McDonald's does employ a lot of people in California. But it does give you a sense that with higher wages, you kind of have to make some adjustments to menu prices.
Michael LeBlanc 15:46
Yeah, sure. I mean, absolutely. I mean, it's not surprising that these raises would happen all at once very quickly, because the rates increased, and we knew they were going to increase the industry that you're going to increase for, I don't know, many months.
Sylvain Charlebois 15:57
It would have been nice to actually see in the report how many employees do they employ now compared to a few years ago, a few weeks ago, trying to, you know, operate with fewer people.
Michael LeBlanc 16:12
I bet you at the-, at the high level there. I mean, there's probably 20,000 open positions right now. So I'm not sure right, like 1000 open positions and retail in America. So I think-, I think that number would be hard to get a sense of anything from because they're, it's not like 100% of those positions are filled. So-
Sylvain Charlebois 16:31
Yeah, but in a year from now. It'd be nice to actually see what the differences are in terms of human capital in that sector and see what-, what kind of adjustments actually occurred.
Michael LeBlanc 16:42
Well, I also think it'd be interesting to see how many places are closed. There's-, I mean, there's a lot of fast-food places I mean, even driving here and in Dallas, I mean, it's bumper to, bumper to bumper fast food places, maybe there's too many, right, so, you know, there's, there's something in that.
Michael LeBlanc 16:56
So anyway, now before we get to our interview with Tanner, who's going to tell us all about the technical elements of growing a fantastic popcorn, let's hear from our presenting sponsor Caddle.
Michael LeBlanc 17:07
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Michael LeBlanc 17:59
Tanner, welcome to The Food Professor podcast, how are you doing this morning?
Tanner Townsend 18:02
I'm doing all right. Doing all right, how about yourself?
Michael LeBlanc 18:04
Fantastic. Thank you. It's a nice sunny day here in the Toronto area. Where am I finding-, where are we finding you today?
Tanner Townsend 18:11
I am down in Walsingham, Ontario, which is in Norfolk County, just outside of kind of Port Dover area. So southwest, have you guys there.
Michael LeBlanc 18:20
Let's talk a little bit about the origins of the business and about who you are and what you do for a living and let's-, let's start there.
Michael LeBlanc 18:27
Wow and-, and where do you fit in? What do you-, like who does what, and you reached out to us, so I got a feeling you're the marketing and busi-dev and the strategy guy, but tell me a little bit about how you as a family run the business?
Tanner Townsend 18:27
So just looking at Uncle Bob's Popcorn as a whole, the company was started in 1985 by my grandfather, the namesake kind of just goes back to his, going around the community he was affectionately known as Uncle Bob. So, it was kind of hand in hand to just put that one together. So yeah, he started the company in 1985 actually looking for just a way to diversify our crops my grandfather and a bunch of his business partners now had a handful of tobacco farms, my dad was growing tobacco, my dad's two brothers were going tobacco with them as well, and they were just looking to you know, kind of add something into the mix, and they looked at a bunch of different options and popcorn was something that you know kind of popped up for them. So that's where Uncle Bob's started and then shortly after that, my grandfather ended up going down and health unfortunately a little bit so basically my dad at that point took it over and him and my mom had been running it basically since about 1986.
Tanner Townsend 19:38
Yeah, so I mean it's-, it's, you know, a common with a lot of small family businesses as well. Everyone wears a lot of hats, but you know, kind of going through, my mom, more handles kind of, you know, sales, and she handles kind of the business admin side of things. I also do sales, but I do the majority of the marketing everything. I also helped my dad out a lot on the farming and A bit more specifically, you know, we're a very vertically integrated company as far as popcorn companies go.
Michael LeBlanc 20:06
Sure.
Tanner Townsend 20:06
We get our seed you know, plant it, grow it ourselves, dry it, process, everything is done by us. So yeah, but he's more on the farming into things and then I kind of help out wherever, wherever a gap needs to be filled, really, but my passion is more on the farming and then kind of marketing sales side of it, but-, but yeah, I do a little bit of everything.
Michael LeBlanc 20:28
Now let's-, let's talk about the product, Uncle Bob's Popcorn. So, I see various flavors. I mean, the-, the flagship product, tell me about, you know, I love popcorn, I gotta tell you right now, I'm a big pop fan. So, so-, who isn't it, right? So, I mean, come on. It's fantastic. So-, but I don't know much about it. I got to say, you know, once I was thinking about what, what to ask you like, how is it-, you know, how is it grown and is-, how is your product different, and is there different flavors or ingredients that would define your brand, like talk about-, talk about the product first of all, you know, we all eat it, but I'm not sure everybody knows exactly how it comes to be-, how it comes to be.
Tanner Townsend 21:07
Yeah, so I mean, kind of starting simply, when you look at a field, it's gonna be very hard to distinguish between popcorn and what you're gonna see as sweet corn or regular corn. But basically, the only way to kind of differentiate it is looking at the tassels on top. Popcorn has very droopy tassels versus all other corn will have nice stiff tassels sticking straight up. So that's really the only indistinguishable part. Know if you dry out a cob of sweet corn and try to pop it in your microwave, it will not work, it's completely different. It is-, so that's kind of a distinguishing part as well and then just some stuff that makes us particularly special is number one, we grow a white hull-less popcorn we call it. So if you look at a popcorn kernel, basically what makes it pop is it's full of starches and then there's these layers of the kind of shell or enamel on the side that holds the pressure in and then those starches explode when it blows all those layers apart.
Tanner Townsend 22:08
Those layers are what gets stuck in your teeth or if you're, you know, braces, and it gets stuck, stuck halfway back down inside your throat. So with the white hull-less, and we're one of the-, well the only grower in Canada of this, for sure and one of the only growers in North America, it only has about seven layers of skin on it versus a regular kernel would have about 13 or 14. So when it pops, it blows that shell kind of in a million different pieces instead of all the big chunks. So you don't get that issue. So that's-, that's a really key feature that we have. It's a very difficult popcorn to grow as well, which is why it's not super common, but if you put in the work, it's-, it's well worth it. So that's one of the bigger things that we are known for and then people specifically keep coming back for it's just because, you know, we get messages almost daily, I wasn't able to eat popcorn for years because I got stuck in my teeth or had dentures, everything like that and-, and so-, so people love it. Aside from-, yeah, aside from that, you know, we do have all of our seasonings, and we've gotten into microwave popcorn in the past year, which has been doing really well for us, but between the white hulless, and then you know just being again, a Canadian grown brand. I think that's more-, more of what sets us apart specifically.
Michael LeBlanc 23:25
Well, let me-, let me follow up on that last point. The made in Canada, I mean, you've got the big made and Ontario Logo made in Ontario, made in Canada, do you think that-, that different helps to differentiate you, I mean, you've gotta have a great product to begin with, but do you think it is meaningful to your customers, I guess you sell both to the trade and to consumers, talk about that a bit.
Tanner Townsend 23:46
Yeah, I think it matters on both ends, you know, on a wholesale-, wholesale and retail side. Specifically from a retail side, I think it's-, it's more of a newer program, right with, I think Doug Ford introduced it in 2018 or '19, the made in Ontario. So it's still catching on, but I think consumers are definitely starting to realize that more and more. We're actually part of the Ontario made awards this year, we were a finalist for a manufacturer out of Ontario. So that was pretty cool for us. I think we had around 13,000 votes or something on our-, on our company, so. Yeah, so I mean, again, it's you know, that that helps to get you in front of people.
Tanner Townsend 24:28
So I think that definitely means a lot and especially in the last few years as well, kind of with COVID and everything. People are looking more local, and they want to stay more in your backyard. So when they're looking for that, you know, the interior main stuff comes up, which is great, and then, you know, kind of switching over to a wholesale perspective as well. I think it's the exact same thing companies are looking for locally, and companies also want to be sustainably looking for themselves. I think I said that weird, but they want to look sustainable themselves, right. So when they're, you know, looking at bringing products in, they want to bring in local products as well because, you know, companies say, oh, we use local popcorn, you know, our carbon footprint is lower, because it's local, it's not being shipped, you know, 15 hours across North America from down in the States, it's from two hours away, or an hour and a half away. So I think from that perspective, companies really are coming back to us too, just because they, you know, kind of want to add the sustainability of us in with their sustainability practices and whatnot. So it helps for sure.
Sylvain Charlebois 25:35
Now, Tanner, you mentioned earlier that your type of popcorn or corn is more difficult to-, to grow. How is-, how is it more difficult, like what makes it more difficult to grow in general, and then does that have something to do with sustainability or the practices that you have to follow to grow that corn?
Tanner Townsend 25:59
It's more or less this specific kind of hybrid of that white hull-less, it has a very weak stock on it, versus a lot of the other hybrids that we grow and basically, what that means is when it kind of grows up and gets ready for your harvest, and everything, you have to harvested at a very specific time because if it falls over in the field, then the cob is laying on the ground, and if you get rained, and that cobs gonna rot. So it just makes it very difficult timing wise and everything, now, we have a bit of an advantage and that's again, another reason that we kind of allow ourselves to grow it and the fact that we're on very sandy soil, so we have really good drainage and so when that corn if it falls over because of the good drainage is not sitting in a puddle, if we get rain, it's it usually stays good. So again, it's just a difficulty of depending on your area, it can be a lot worse, but for us, it's not too bad, but again, still very, very specific on timing and everything.
Sylvain Charlebois 27:06
And when-, when is harvest for you guys, for this particular corn?
Tanner Townsend 27:11
Harvest is a regular time for corn, you know, we're going through late October, early November, hopefully is, you know, our timeline, but again, depending on weather conditions, and etc., that can really be affected. You know, if we're getting a lot of rain, then we can't get columbines over the field, because everything's just a big muddle. We're gonna get everything stuck and covered with dirt, and it's just not a fun time and popcorn also, you can't dry it conventionally, like regular corn. A lot of guys will use natural gas dryers and basically kind of coat the corner a little bit to get all the moisture out of it. We can't do that, because what happens when you cook a cob right.
Michael LeBlanc 27:58
There'd be a lot going on.
Tanner Townsend 28:01
Yeah. So it's-, it's a little different that way. So we need to let it dry out in the field as long as possible to kind of use the natural conditions, right. So again, timing is super important for us, and then you know, we can't put it in the bin wet either because it will just rot. So timing conditions, everything really, Mother Nature is-, is a big decider in a lot of what we do.
Sylvain Charlebois 28:30
Can-, can you store this corn for a long time? I mean, what's the-, what's the, like-, how come, how long can you actually store this corn in your-, in your bins?
Tanner Townsend 28:39
So it's-, once we've harvested, it takes, usually, around half a year to dry it. So we're only starting
Sylvain Charlebois 28:46
Half a year, wow.
Tanner Townsend 28:48
We're only starting to pull the crop that we've harvested in fall of '23 right now and '24 because we kind of store it like popcorn really has an infinite shelf life, as long as it's not in a sunny high moisture situation. If you just keep it cool and dry, it really has an infinite shelf life, but once we harvest it, we have specialized bins that they-, that all the popcorn goes into to dry them. That is kind of proprietary to you know, every farmer because they all find a way that you know works better than others, but it's a lot of basically just natural air and then a few other factors that helps dry that popcorn down evenly and that's a very crucial part is making it also even because if you have, you know, over the top that's wet and part of the bottom that's dry, you kind of start pulling, and then it doesn't work. So you've got to make sure that it's yeah, just done nice and evenly and slowly. That's the key to it.
Sylvain Charlebois 29:48
Talk to us more about the consumer, our consumers in general. Can you describe to me what-, what is a popcorn eater today versus say 10 years-, years ago, and what are some of the trends that you're actually looking for right now, as you develop your business into, in popcorn?
Tanner Townsend 30:09
Well, I think, you know, kind of, if you look back, probably 10 years ago, one of the things that I could associate with that as we started growing, organic popcorn, then about 2008, or 2009, as well, we had a lot of interest in the market, from customers and retailers and wholesalers for it. So we started doing that, and it was going really well, but, you know, had kind of ever since the financial situation has changed significantly, in the past couple of years, we've really seen that side of the business go down. It's significantly more expensive for us to produce. So it's obviously significantly more expensive for consumers to purchase. So we've-, we've really seen quite a drop in that. We have a crazy amount of it on hand right now and-, probably yeah, this, this year is probably going to be our first year in a handful years, and we're not going to be growing, just because we have at this point, probably two or more years of inventory on our hands just because it's significantly slowed down and it was very-
Sylvain Charlebois 31:17
Popcorn is considered as a healthy snack and snacking is really important for the younger generations. Would you say that popcorn is really positioned as a-, as a healthy choice for younger-, younger generations?
Tanner Townsend 31:32
Yeah, I think overall it is, and I think that's kind of where we fit in, as well as because we don't sell aside from kind of the odd little tidbit here and there. We don't sell any popped popcorn, all of ours is just the kernels. So I mean, at that point, if you're just making a bowl of kernels, and you know, you want to put a little bit of seasoning on it and stuff, it's a super, super healthy snack, probably about as healthy as you're gonna get. Super high and fibers depending on the kind that you're gonna get, can be super high in antioxidants as well and like we grow five different colors of corn, we have like yellow, the white hull-less that we talked about, and that we also have a blue, purple and red.
Tanner Townsend 32:11
And so one thing that people always talk about blueberries and antioxidants. If you look at a blueberry, the antioxidants are in the skin of the blueberry because antioxidants are in the color. The color-, kind of perked up purpley blue is the antioxidants. That's where you get from. So everybody always talks about blueberries and antioxidants. Well, blueberries have one layer of skin on them, right, a popcorn kernel, as I mentioned before, has 13 or 14 layers of skin on it. So if you're getting a blue or a purple popcorn, one kernel is probably about the same as a handful of blueberries when you're looking at any oxygens. So again, as far as you know, kind of health and whatnot, you have a super healthy snack and popcorn, and the rest of it is just a very clean fiber too.
Michael LeBlanc 32:53
Yeah, interesting. All right. Now I want to-, I want to get your advice to fellow entrepreneurs, but first I’ve got a-, I’ve got a couple of product questions for you. I'm on your site, and I see a movie theater popcorn salt. What is this, I've never heard of such a thing. What is the difference between popcorn salt and, and regular salt because I'm about to press buy here, because I love-, you know, apparently it's pretty good. What-, what-, what is this thing that you-, that you sell along with your popcorn?
Tanner Townsend 33:19
Well, that-, if I think we're talking about the same product that would just be-, you get it a movie-, at a movie, yeah, Flavacol, that's exactly what you use it a movie theater.
Michael LeBlanc 33:27
Yeah.
Tanner Townsend 33:28
So if you want movie theater quality popcorn At Home, that is the exact product that you need. Basically, it's just a kind of a butter salt, kind of clone and yeah, that's just exactly how you get it. It's got beta carotene in it, florange. So it kind of makes your popcorn look super nice and buttery as well, but yeah, that's that.
Michael LeBlanc 33:52
Okay, so would you put butter on your-, so this is probably not for the podcast now, I'm just asking for myself. So would you put butter on it as well with the Flavacol?
Tanner Townsend 33:58
No, no, no, you just put a little, you'd need to do like a stovetop version at that point. She would just put a little bit of oil in your pot and your kernels and your Flavacol and then kind of shake it around, and it's gonna come out perfect.
Michael LeBlanc 34:13
Well, I'm going to try that.
Sylvain Charlebois 34:14
Wow.
Michael LeBlanc 34:15
I'm gonna try that. So let me ask you this question, let's talk about you, you and your family, as entrepreneurs, what-, what lessons would you-, you've-, well, what lessons have you, have you learned but more what would you impart, what advice if someone was looking to get into being an entrepreneur in the food business, I mean, there's farming and then there's also the other part of it which is your, your product your brand, what's-, what are the kind of a couple things that people need to know, particularly that they might not be aware of or that might take them by surprise, what-, what lessons have you in the family learned that you'd like to, like to share?
Tanner Townsend 34:48
Yeah, well, I think first and foremost, the, the first thing you have to do is when you're looking at it, being in you know, kind of being an entrepreneur or your own boss or anything, you really have to make sure that it's something you're passionate about because if you're going to jump into that space, it's not a nine to five, it's only 24/7, you know, you're jumping into something that's going to take up a lot of your time, and, you know, probably for a very good portion of the startup at least, or a couple years, you're probably not going to make a crazy amount of money. So make sure that it's something you're super passionate about because if it's not, you're gonna end up really not happy.
Tanner Townsend 35:28
I've seen some people do that, you know, just because they thought it was something that could make crazy amount of money out and then a year and a half down the road, they're like, what have I got myself into, and what have I done, I'm not making any money, and I'm not happy, and it's not something that, that I'm, you know, wanting to continue and then at that point, you know, if future is gonna jump ship, then it's a lot of wasted time, right, a lot of wasted time and effort and energy.
Tanner Townsend 35:52
You know, like I said, it's something that you're going to be putting a significant amount of time into. So, again, really make sure it's something you're passionate about and then, you know, just kind of following that, I think I would say, do your research really well, because again, if you're investing all this time, and then especially if you're getting into the food business, you're gonna have to buy packaging, you're gonna do marketing, and you're gonna have to do all this and that. So really do your research, because again, you can, you know, get down the road, when you thought you had a really good idea and either there's someone else that's already done it, or there's not a market for it, or, you know, it's not possible or something. So, again, you're just investing a significant amount of time in this. So make sure you're happy and make sure you know what you're doing. I think that's, I think that kind of sums it up from my perspective.
Michael LeBlanc 36:38
It's learn as you go, though, I mean, I'm sure you're-, you and the family didn't know everything when you got into the business, but you had the kind of the core passion and some core experience, right. I mean, there's-, there's things, yeah, it's a very dynamic environment too, right.
Tanner Townsend 36:52
Yeah, and that's your 100%, right, you're always learning as you go. I don't think there's a day that goes by that I can't say that I didn't find something new or learn something in the day, so you know, it's, but that's-, when you're passionate about it that's what makes it fun, and I'm a type of person I always you know, I always want to look for better I want to do this better. I want to do that better so you know, I'm always kind of searching for that next thing to step into or assist with. When you have the passion for it. I think it makes that kind of easy, and to be honest with you as well.
Sylvain Charlebois 37:25
Tanner, interesting story. Great, great product. I actually haven't tasted it yet, but it's on my list for sure and, and thank you again for joining us on The Food Professor podcasts and all the best to you and to your family.
Tanner Townsend 37:42
Yeah, absolutely. I can't thank you guys enough for having us on, honestly. We're really happy about it. I've been listening to your podcast for a little while now, Sylvain. So now I can listen to myself on it
Michael LeBlanc 37:53
Hey, Tanner where can-, if people want to, I see you sell-, you've got a site Uncle Bob's, but where's the most common places across the country to buy your product?
Tanner Townsend 38:01
Yeah, that's a great question. Thanks for bringing that up, actually. So we do have a website, which we do ship all across North America. So that's ontariopoppingcorn.com and then as far as retailers, we are with Peavey Mart. We're kind of scattered through a handful of stores in Ontario, but out west pretty well. Every Peavey Mart has our product. In Ontario, you can find us at 42 Food Basics locations, kind of from Hamilton going down across Kitchener, Guelph, Waterloo, London, all the way into Windsor and kind of everything in between there. We are in a handful of Loblaws and no frills stores just kind of depends on where you look. Yeah, that's about it. We're hoping to expand a little bit more. So I don't know if there's any category managers or buyers out there that might listen to this podcast, but-
Michael LeBlanc 38:55
Get in touch.
Tanner Townsend 38:56
Tree feel free to get in touch because we're looking to expand, and we're more than willing to, you know, make it work.
Michael LeBlanc 39:04
That's an opportunity knocking right there. That's-, that's an opportunity knocking. All right, Tanner. Thanks so much for joining both Sylvain and I on The Food Professor podcast. Wish you much continued success.
Tanner Townsend 39:14
Absolutely. My pleasure. Thank you very much, gentlemen.
Michael LeBlanc 39:17
I had the popcorn. You know what I was watching when I had the popcorn?
Sylvain Charlebois 39:20
Let me-, let me think here. Food Inc 2.0.
Michael LeBlanc 39:26
Food Inc. 2.0. Did you watch it? Have you seen it yet?
Sylvain Charlebois 39:30
I did not. Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 39:32
Well, let me-, without telling you the whole thing-
Sylvain Charlebois 39:34
Was it on Crave, or, okay.
Michael LeBlanc 39:37
I paid for it, actually, it was like a $4.99 rental or something. So I paid for it.
Michael LeBlanc 39:41
So it wasn't-, it wasn't-, it was fine. You know what's funny.
Sylvain Charlebois 39:41
Right.
Sylvain Charlebois 39:44
Was it worth $4.99?
Michael LeBlanc 39:47
You know what, the reality is it was filmed, and it talks about how people were treated. There's a bunch of different things, one of which is how people were treated during COVID. I mean, basically events have superseded, how are people being held slaves on ships and little children at work in-, in meat plants is-, is more horrific. I mean, we've been talking about these things over and over but almost superseded the concerns about how the people who feed us were treated during COVID doesn't supersede it, so to speak, but it was almost like that's old news a little bit. They talked about plastics and-, and it was a little more upbeat than-, than the last one, but it felt like it-
Sylvain Charlebois 40:22
The first one, which I saw, yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 40:24
Yeah. To me, it felt like a bit of old news like it was like, anyway, it was, it's worth watching, let me preach it that way. Particularly with some Uncle Bob's popcorn, but it is, it won't, it won't make the impact that the-, the first one did. I mean, let's put it that way.
Sylvain Charlebois 40:39
Was it like, does it cover service retail, like, how deep does it go, I mean?
Michael LeBlanc 40:47
It mostly talks about the agricultural sector and the-, the paradox of we want fresh food and the paradox that the people who pick this food that are so important, are not treated, you know, are paid, not paid well, and particularly the US there, you know, at the same issue here, right. They're-
Tanner Townsend 41:04
Is there a lot about farmworkers?
Michael LeBlanc 41:07
It has a lot of time about farmworkers. Yeah, particularly because, you know, the farmworkers didn't, you know, they had to show up during COVID. Right.
Sylvain Charlebois 41:14
So they don't look at manufacturing or distribution or retail at all?
Michael LeBlanc 41:18
Not as much, not as much not as they do a little bit anyway, I don't want to give it all away, because I want folks to watch it. It is worth watching. You should watch it as well. It's a-, it's a good watch. Let's talk about, and we've mentioned this before shrink-flation signs in grocery stores in France. So we saw in-, we saw some pictures out of Carrefour, and they've been doing this in one way shape or another for a while, like as a trade tactic. So they put up a sign and basically say, you know, very visual-, this is-, this shrink-flation was, is, shame on you. Like as a trade tactic, it seems pretty harsh. Do you think it's an effective consumer-
Sylvain Charlebois 41:24
You get a sense of why they're doing it, you know, there's a strategy.
Michael LeBlanc 41:57
Yeah, I was gonna ask like, do you think it's an effective consumer communication strategy, like, do you think on behalf of the grocer that their consumers are, they determine their consumers are just blaming them 100% for the higher prices or the shrink-flation and that this is they're kind of hidden in the head with a two by four blunt force. We're just going to push it in front of you that, you know, the brand has a big role in this. Do you think it's an effective tactic?
Sylvain Charlebois 42:21
I would say that the majority of Canadians do believe it's an effective tactic. They do believe it's necessary. They do believe it's a good idea. I do not think it's a good idea. I do not think it's a-, it's a good tactic in the Carrefour case, it was very much about renegotiating contracts with suppliers and it was about power. It was about influence. From a policy perspective, I don't-, I don't see the point to be honest, other than perhaps enraging your consumers even more and creating more tensions within-, within the, within the supply chain with processors
Michael LeBlanc 42:59
But it's making them mad, I think it's making a mad at the brands not the grocer, I think the grocer to some degree feel that they take an unfair amount of blame for these things, because they're the ones selling it and it. So if-
Sylvain Charlebois 43:14
Don't forget Carrefour were excluded, privately labeled products, they only targeted branded products, which I thought was not necessarily honest, if you actually want to implement a policy about shrink-flation, cover everything and so in Canada, I think the intent from Ottawa, and it was actually in the federal budget, on page 139, I believe, and it was mentioned that they were going to be talking about shrink-flation and skimp-flation as well, it's in the budget and I didn't think that we're serious and frankly.
Sylvain Charlebois 43:48
I still don't think they're serious because they need the support of provinces in order to implement something like this and frankly, if you talk to FHCP, if you talk to SeaTac and Quebec with Sylvie, they will be absolutely against why the shaming game, why institutionalize a shaming game, when in actuality you got some bigger issues, right then shrink-flation? For example, okay, when you reduce the quantity of a product, many of them are now taxable because they are a snack, the snack tax. Okay, why not talk about that-, that I think that's a much bigger issue.
Sylvain Charlebois 44:29
Another issue with shrink-flation, why not make sure that Statistics Canada properly measures the impact of shrink-flation on CPI data, why not do that because right now they have a page, they're saying that they're measuring. We don't see the evidence at the lab like we just don't see it. So why not, those to me are so much bigger issues and just put artifacts in grocery stores and start some sort of a mud match between suppliers and grocers.
Michael LeBlanc 45:03
So as you-, as you do, you have the ear occasionally, I guess, of the ministers involved and your advice then would be don't follow the Carrefour path. You have other options that you haven't done yet, and we've been talking about the snack tax for months about something that could be done. I guess it's not gonna be done now that the budget is passed. I mean, it's hard to imagine other than, you know, I don't know the fall a fall economic update state and I mean, they're focused on-
Sylvain Charlebois 45:28
I mean, seriously, when you look at that, the NATO poll and Leger, the budget didn't move the needle at all, for the Liberals, at all, like liberals remain unpopular, but if they would have actually tackled the snack tax my-, my guess it would have helped them?
Michael LeBlanc 45:48
I don't know. I don't know, I think, I don't know, I think-
Sylvain Charlebois 45:50
It wouldn't have-, it wouldn't have actually annoyed people, it would have actually been well received compared to what's going on with the-, with the capital gain tax, for example.
Michael LeBlanc 46:00
That wasn't well received by a small segment of the population, and you know, listen, again, we're not a political podcast, but you're right. I mean, they needed this budget-
Sylvain Charlebois 46:09
The snack tax is a sellable feature.
Michael LeBlanc 46:11
Right.
Sylvain Charlebois 46:11
People will understand.
Michael LeBlanc 46:12
Yeah, it's very snackable-, likable. Anyway, I guess they had put all their efforts in everything they could do around homes, you know, affordability around homes, they put most of their money into that.
Sylvain Charlebois 46:24
Yeah, they did spend a lot of money. And-
Michael LeBlanc 46:28
That's the number one issue for Canadians. I think I mean, food affordability, but affordability in general, how much they pay for rent, how much they pay for housing, you know, is-, is-
Sylvain Charlebois 46:37
And it was a-, it was a must, but I honestly thought
Michael LeBlanc 46:40
Missed opportunity, you think, missed-
Sylvain Charlebois 46:42
I think-, I think it was, and it's just a cheap way to actually get support. Very cheap. Instead of putting signs in a grocery store. You're not-
Michael LeBlanc 46:53
Not that they were proposing that. Not that they're proposing that, are they-, or anybody proposing that to happen here in Canada?
Sylvain Charlebois 46:59
It was-, it was suggested by Champagne a few days ago. The signs-, the signs you're talking about?
Michael LeBlanc 47:05
Yes.
Sylvain Charlebois 47:06
Yes. Champagne actually mentioned yesterday, that he's actually thinking about it.
Michael LeBlanc 47:11
Alright, get him on the phone and tell him it's a bad idea. You've got his number, get him on the phone.
Sylvain Charlebois 47:16
It's a ridiculous idea. I mean, the first time I spoke to him back in-, in July of last year, he did mention to me that we should put signs to chain companies about shrink-flation and I never, I never thought it was a good idea. I still don't think it's a good idea, because I don't think you're gonna-, and then let's say, how do you actually set a calendar for shrink-flation, do you go back like a year, two years, five years, how does it work, and who's going to be managing all that? It's just ridiculous.
Michael LeBlanc 47:49
Yeah, I think-, I think it just leads to more, you know, more anger and more anxiety in the stores and none of that's good for the people who work there.
Sylvain Charlebois 47:59
One thing I can suggest to our listeners is to go on the CBC website. Okay. The CBC has a fantastic database,
Michael LeBlanc 48:08
Well let's put a link, we'll put a link in the show notes for that, just because you talked about it.
Michael LeBlanc 48:11
It's there.
Sylvain Charlebois 48:11
Showing all of the products that have been shrink-flation-ed in the last decade or so. So if you really want to know which products have actually shrunk and by how much.
Sylvain Charlebois 48:14
You can know already, you will know already as-, as an avid shopper.
Michael LeBlanc 48:28
Alright, let's move on to our last thing. There's an interesting article in The Globe and Mail that talked about, and the headline made me think of you. Quebec farmers have been protesting since December 1st. Is anyone listening? So the article talks about some things we've talked about, of course, high interest rates, their payments to the carbon tax, net income of farmers apparently has dropped an average of 50%. They've paid $400 million in environmental fees. I guess that's the carbon tax, but, the plastic products. So, you know, we're not seeing the kind of, you know, manure, spraying tactics on Wellington Street in front of the parliament that we were kind of seeing in France, but what, what's your prognosis for the farmers in Quebec and their, and they're interested in protesting, and you think this is going to accelerate? Or is there a different way to go about this? Or, you know, what, what, think you have all this?
Sylvain Charlebois 49:21
Yeah, well, in Quebec, they have a bit of a problem because some-, some farmers are actually doing quite well, and I'm talking about supply management. I mean, if you-, if you-, if you take dairy, poultry, and eggs out, that's 60% of Quebec agriculture, and they're doing fine. So the farmer you see out on the streets is the 40% and so, and that's-, that's the problem for the Union in Quebec. They've always had that problem. The union-, we should have two unions in Quebec, one for the people who operate in a free market and supply management and-, and both of these groups have different needs and have different focuses and so right now, I would say that the 40% going out, asking for some attention is-, is absolutely appropriate.
Sylvain Charlebois 50:14
I think they do need help, they knew they needed support, but the Minister, the Minister of Agriculture is stuck between a rock and a hard place, the union is stuck between a hard-, a rock and a hard place and so that's why and the public is going well. You know, I'm looking at some of the numbers here and you guys are doing okay, so what's up here and so that's why in English Canada, I think it'd be easier, like the grain farmers, for example, or livestock, I think it'd be easier for them to mobilize and-, and so are they ready to do that, I don't know is in Quebec, of course, it's not the same spirit as elsewhere. In Canada, the media actually gave it a shot. I'll be honest, I think that the CBC and some media actually gave farmers some attention, but it wasn't sticking. It wasn't sticking at all.
Michael LeBlanc 51:05
Interesting. I mean, your points are interesting about, you know, there's like a bifurcation, right, some farmers do really well, I saw-, I saw our friends at Olymel, like, closed another plant and laid off some people as they continue to restructure.
Sylvain Charlebois 51:16
Saint-Jean oh, yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 51:17
You know, so I think-, I think your point is well taken.
Sylvain Charlebois 51:20
That plant in Saint-Jean that closed this week was at 40% capacity. So it was really, and I did say, when they closed when they closed the first big plant. I absolutely was convinced that there was another one that was going to be closer.
Michael LeBlanc 51:37
I remember saying that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you got that. Right. All right. Well, listen, great episode, and I'm looking forward. I'll send-, I'll-
Sylvain Charlebois 51:46
If I may, Michael, just shout out to my good friend Tony Walker just actually published a new article, a study on the use of plastics in the world by different companies, and it is the article that is covered by the Guardian today, and it mentions that-, that food companies are disproportionately responsible for plastic pollution. Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 52:14
And I saw some names, you're right. You sent that to me just before we went on air, so I just.
Sylvain Charlebois 52:19
Yeah, just came out today, actually.
Michael LeBlanc 52:21
Yeah, I think we-, I think let's-, let's-, let's-, let's tease it for next, let's get-, because I think it's a pretty important issue. So let's not.
Sylvain Charlebois 52:29
Oh, absolutely yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 52:30
Let's-, let's-, just tease it now, but let's get into it next episode and talk about it in more depth because I think it's a vital issue for us.
Sylvain Charlebois 52:38
There's, I mean, I actually did tweet on plastics this week, because they're the-, it's kind of the theme for Earth Day and you can feel that again. It's like the carbon tax, it's very political. Yeah, people-, people love plastic straws, and they want to fight for them and, and frankly, I've always been of the mind that plastics work. We're addicted, we're addicted to plastic because it works they plastics work as so to replace them, it's not going to be easy and so, but we need to work at it and-, and you need some policy, but at the same time you also need industry to-, to come along and right now you have the Conservatives writing a petition to actually keep plastic straws. I mean, come on, seriously.
Michael LeBlanc 53:25
So, let's talk about the next episode, because I don't want to give this study quick once over at the end of our episode. So, let's-, let's talk about it next episode, we're gonna have great guests, and I'll be back, and I'll be talking about my Barbeque tour.
Sylvain Charlebois 53:39
Yes, looking forward to that.
Michael LeBlanc 53:41
I'm looking forward to that, looking forward to telling everybody all about it. So until then, I'm Michael LeBlanc, media entrepreneur, keynote speaker, podcast producer, and you are?
Sylvain Charlebois 53:51
I'm The Food Professor, Sylvain Charlebois.
Michael LeBlanc 53:55
All right, let's leave it there, everybody safe travels, and we'll talk to you next week.
Sylvain Charlebois 53:59
Take care.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
popcorn, product, talk, food, people, bit, consumers, shrink, Canada, farmers, Ontario, grow, years, corn, Quebec, kernels, podcast, tanner, good, work