Sylvain gets pretty worked up about Nestle's decision to exit the freezer section with their pizzas and other frozen staples, the latest report from the AgriFoods lab on the cashless economy, Canadian dairy in the dumps, and we visit the discount grocery store sector. Finally, a bit of trouble for our friend Yanick Gervais at Olymel, who is closing some processing plants. We get the "T" from our extraordinary guest Shabnam Weber, President of the Tea and Herbal Association of Canada, and a special announcement about the show!
Sylvain gets pretty worked up about Nestle's decision to exit the freezer section with their pizzas and other frozen staples, the latest report from the AgriFoods lab on the cashless economy, Canadian dairy in the dumps, and we visit the discount grocery store sector. Finally, a bit of trouble for our friend Yanick Gervais at Olymel, who is closing some processing plants
We get the "T" from our extraordinary guest Shabnam Weber, President of the Tea and Herbal Association of Canada, and a special announcement about the show!
About Shabnam
For almost two decades, Shabnam Weber owned and operated her own tea company in Toronto, Canada. With retail stores and a wholesale business, her company was one of the first of its kind in Toronto. Her passion and love of tea led her to become involved with the Tea and Herbal Association of Canada as a Director, sitting on a number of committees, most notably the Education Committee where she wrote the Tea Sommelier® program.
Shabnam divested from her business’ and took the position of President of the Tea and Herbal Association of Canada in 2018. She has transformed the association through the programs and resources it offers members and become an industry leader. She is the Canadian representative on the UN FAO’s Intergovernmental Group on Tea where she sits on a number of working groups as well as being the Vice-Chair of the working group on Smallholders and co-Chair of the working group on Tea and Health.
Through her time as an entrepreneur and her industry involvement for over twenty years, she has a unique perspective on multiple angles of the business advocating for all. Shabnam values the diversity offered by all parts of the tea industry, both in Canada and beyond and focuses always on the bigger picture.
About Us
Dr. Sylvain Charlebois is a Professor in food distribution and policy in the Faculties of Management and Agriculture at Dalhousie University in Halifax. He is also the Senior Director of the Agri-food Analytics Lab, also located at Dalhousie University. Before joining Dalhousie, he was affiliated with the University of Guelph’s Arrell Food Institute, which he co-founded. Known as “The Food Professor”, his current research interest lies in the broad area of food distribution, security and safety. Google Scholar ranks him as one of the world's most cited scholars in food supply chain management, food value chains and traceability.
He has authored five books on global food systems, his most recent one published in 2017 by Wiley-Blackwell entitled “Food Safety, Risk Intelligence and Benchmarking”. He has also published over 500 peer-reviewed journal articles in several academic publications. Furthermore, his research has been featured in several newspapers and media groups, including The Lancet, The Economist, the New York Times, the Boston Globe, the Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, BBC, NBC, ABC, Fox News, Foreign Affairs, the Globe & Mail, the National Post and the Toronto Star.
Dr. Charlebois sits on a few company boards, and supports many organizations as a special advisor, including some publicly traded companies. Charlebois is also a member of the Scientific Council of the Business Scientific Institute, based in Luxemburg. Dr. Charlebois is a member of the Global Food Traceability Centre’s Advisory Board based in Washington DC, and a member of the National Scientific Committee of the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) in Ottawa.
About Michael
Michael is the Founder & President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company Inc. and a Senior Advisor to Retail Council of Canada and the Bank of Canada as part of his advisory and consulting practice. He brings 25+ years of brand/retail/marketing & eCommerce leadership experience with Levi's, Black & Decker, Hudson's Bay, Today's Shopping Choice and Pandora Jewellery.
Michael has been on the front lines of retail industry change for his entire career. He has delivered keynotes, hosted fire-side discussions with C-level executives and participated worldwide in thought leadership panels. ReThink Retail has added Michael to their prestigious Top Global Retail Influencers list for 2023 for the third year in a row.
Michael is also the president of Maven Media, producing a network of leading trade podcasts, including Remarkable Retail , with best-selling author Steve Dennis, now ranked one of the top retail podcasts in the world.
Based in San Francisco, Global eCommerce Leaders podcast explores global cross-border issues and opportunities for eCommerce brands and retailers.
Last but not least, Michael is the producer and host of the "Last Request Barbeque" channel on YouTube, where he cooks meals to die for - and collaborates with top brands as a food and product influencer across North America.
Michael LeBlanc 00:05
Welcome to The Food Professor Podcast Season 3. This episode goes to 11. I'm Michael LeBlanc.
Sylvain Charlebois 00:12
And I'm The Food Professor, Sylvain Charlebois.
Michael LeBlanc 00:15
That's right it is Season 3, Episode 11 We're back on the mic again so much to talk about in the news. We got dairy double-down, we got pizza-gate, maybe we can call it pizza-gate. Cash apparently, isn't a king in the grocery aisles anymore and much, much more and our very special guest this episode Shabnam Weber, President of the Tea and Herbal Association of Canada,
Sylvain Charlebois 00:39
Marvelous, a marvelous leader in the industry. My goodness, she's so dynamic.
Michael LeBlanc 00:44
You and I believe Matt Shebna. And before I did, we met together when we were at the Coffee Association, and I had a great brief discussion and she was generous enough to accept our offer to join us. So, we'll get to our interview with Shabnam in a bit. All right, let's jump into the news. You know, first of all, you're pretty worked up about this Nestle decision to exit the freezer section with their pizzas and some other frozen staples. So, (crossover talk) of all things,
Sylvain Charlebois 01:11
I don't like delivery. So, I like Delissio.
Michael LeBlanc 01:13
Well, it’s too bad because you're not gonna get your Delissio, (crossover talk) of all these things? Why are you paying, of all things why are you paying so much attention? What's going on?
Sylvain Charlebois 01:24
I think there's something going on. I mean, first of all, it is a huge company, which occupies many SKUs in the freezer aisle. The freezer aisle is a pretty busy place these days. Because the market really got more frugal. Every time I go to the grocery store, I was there twice this weekend. And honestly, it was the only thing I could do outside because it was freezing and,
Michael LeBlanc 01:51
It's cold where you are, yeah, it’s cold, you guys are now and that, that, didn't this, the grocery. I mean, if we go pre-COVID Like just pre-COVID the frozen aisles were getting a little sleepy. I mean, because people were walking the perimeter and shopping the perimeter of the store. COVID kind of resuscitated or I guess gave another lift to the frozen food. Now you're also saying they're getting another lift from economics and the price of foods.
Sylvain Charlebois 02:16
Well yeah, I mean, in 2022 for every restaurant that is open in Canada two closed. So, you can see that really, people are looking at food service very differently. And they're trying to probably find ways to go out while staying at home sort of thing. And the freezer aisle is a friendly place to find new ideas. Nestle actually occupies many skews. And I was just looking on the weekend at a couple of grocery stores. And I would say that probably Nestle occupies probably anywhere between 15 to 20 doors, really.
Michael LeBlanc 02:35
Wow, yeah, yeah, they have a big share.
Sylvain Charlebois 02:38
They're leaving behind a huge void now. I mean, when I saw the news, I thought this is great. I mean, this is gonna be great for Canadian companies. We do have manufacturers in Canada, manufacturing pizzas and, and other products. And of course, we have private labels. So, but they're leaving in six months. That's not all and we've actually had people on our show, telling us that to design a new product, to actually launch a new product takes much longer than six months. So, it's there. I think a lot of grocers are looking at their portfolio of products for their freezer aisle very differently this morning, knowing that in six months from now, Nestle's leaving.
Michael LeBlanc 03:38
Yeah, and just for the listeners, I did a bit of research myself on how big this category was. I'm like how much, how big can frozen pizzas be globally? It's about a $15 billion category and it's got about a 6% CAGR. So, it's got good growth, and about half of that volume is in the states. So, let's say 7 billion for easy math, and let's say 10 to one for Canada, right, that could make sense, right. So, what's that seven, you know, almost a billion. Now, two things came to my mind. One, is when Nestle announced publicly that they were exiting it doesn't mean that's when they told the grocers though, right. So, the grocers could have had more heads up than six months?
Sylvain Charlebois 03:53
Possibly, yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 03:55
And then my other thought is, you know, I was walking the aisles, (crossover talk).
Sylvain Charlebois 04:21
They could have known since, since November.
Michael LeBlanc 04:24
They could have known since you know, hey, don't tell anybody but you know, to maintain good, you know, you would think they would tell their partners they were going to leave and then tell the public in six months or whatever, let's, let's speculate there maybe some of the grocers that are listening might, might drop us a line about that. And then two, you know, I was walking the aisles myself and I was in, I was in a Longo’s, I was in a Sobeys. I was in a Costco and a Walmart this weekend; it was a busy weekend and they all had significant private labels. And what's that Dr. Oetker? I saw Dr. Oetker as well. It would seem to me that they could just, you're absolutely right about how long it takes to create a new product, but they could just ramp up production of the existing private label to close that gap, (crossover talk) you would make, right.
Sylvain Charlebois 05:04
Well, I mean last week, I was meeting with the executives of an association here in our region called the Atlantic Canada Food Executive Club. And they invite guest speakers every couple of months to talk to them. And I was invited for the third time on Thursday of last week. And, and guess what Dr. Oetker and McCain were, were in the room. And so, we chatted of course, that was the big news that day. So, we talked about it and, and so the Dr. Oetker representatives basically can't, can't see how they can occupy or fill that gap left behind by Nestle.
Sylvain Charlebois 05:25
But I think you're right, I actually do think there's an opportunity, similar to what we saw with the POS sale. Last year between Frito Lay and Loblaws, we saw a lot of yellow and, and white bags, and, and smaller players coming into the market, getting more exposure. Like, I don't want to set up some sort of conspiracy theory, but Nestle's exit, is it really just an exit? Or is this really a stop-sell, just saying, you know, what the cost to sell here is just too high. We're just leaving. And that's it, which will provide an opportunity for many, many players, but at the same time, maybe Nestle decided that, you know, what, for that, for those categories is just we can't be competitive.
Michael LeBlanc 06:33
Interesting. Well, I guess we may or may not ever know, again, but your interest in this has seemed to be kind of reading between the lines or actually reading the lines is more around? Well, you know, for it's a very cost effective medium. So, there's an impact on food affordability, more than assortment. I mean, you don't really care about assortment in any category plus or minus really, but it's really, it's an interesting business issue. But,
Sylvain Charlebois 06:51
That's right.
Michael LeBlanc 06:53
You're a little more concerned about the, you know, the frozen aisle as a, as a, as an affordable choice for consumers across Canada, right.
Sylvain Charlebois 07:07
Yeah, no, absolutely. And so, I think it's a plus, it's just, you know, the time frame, you're prob-, you're probably right, I mean, grocers knew, probably months before. My guess if they knew before, it was probably at the beginning of the blackout period, when you know they make announcements about price increases a couple of months ahead of time and all that stuff. So, I suspect that and of course, Nestle's still going to continue to do business on the confectionery side, they'll still, they'll still be selling products to grocers, so they wanted to maintain some good relationships there. But overall, so but, but, but it is an exit. It's unfortunate, but I was actually looking at the number of investments in food manufacturing in Canada over the last 12 months. The list is pretty long. I mean, (crossover talk).
Michael LeBlanc 07:55
They didn't make it; they didn't make it here as well. We should add that point in case anybody missed the point,
Sylvain Charlebois 07:59
No plants are going to close here. It's not that, it's not that, I don't see it as a big deal over time. It's just that, it is just that six months is making me think some people panic a little bit.
Michael LeBlanc 08:10
All right, well, let's, let's move on to the latest report from the Lab on the cashless economy.
Sylvain Charlebois 08:14
Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 08:15
It would seem like many other retail environments. Cashless is king, but your study talked about some interesting socio-economic things about cash versus credit, some apply to all retail, but I guess the fact that it, you know, this could be if I, if I read the report, right, that this could be a third rail type issue for grocers because of course, food is seen as a necessity of life as it is. And you know, there's what, what did the, what did the report say 6% or 1.5 million in the bank Canadians and cash. So, take us through the report a little bit about why you were looking at this and how it's different in some ways in the grocery aisle.
Sylvain Charlebois 08:53
Yeah. Do you, so you remember how a $10 bill looks like in Canada?
Michael LeBlanc 09:00
If it does-, if it doesn't come out of an ATM, no, I mean to 20 to 20 or 50, no, I can't remember.
Sylvain Charlebois 09:07
I mean 6% of Canadians actually pay their groceries with cash. So, that number, yeah, and that number will continue to, continue to drop.
Michael LeBlanc 09:11
Yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois 09:13
The one thing that most Canadians don't know, I think, is that there is no law, obligating retailers and grocers to accept cash.
Michael LeBlanc 09:26
Just like there's no law that obligates any retailer to sell to you. It's the same thing,
Sylvain Charlebois 09:29
Exactly.
Michael LeBlanc 09:30
At a higher order, (crossover talk).
Sylvain Charlebois 09:32
So, we wanted to know one, is, is, is this seen as a problem by Canadians? And there were a couple of interesting results for one. First of all, the world is going cashless and many, many people see it as a convenience. I mean, it's quite practical to just give plastic to your grocer and walk away without handling any cash. It's, it's quicker, it's faster and people love it.
Michael LeBlanc 10:03
And they earn points, right? Let's, we'll (crossover talk) talk about that later. But that's a big motivation for, (crossover talk).
Sylvain Charlebois 10:08
They earned points for two programs, grocers’ loyalty program and points with credit, because we noticed that more than half of Canadians actually use their credit cards to actually accumulate points. So, a lot of people are getting smarter out there trying to save money as much as possible with plastic. But there's a couple of issues that really came up in our results. One is privacy. Because when you actually give plastic to your grocer, you're giving a part of you away, right? You're list-, you're leaving a trace, (crossover talk).
Michael LeBlanc 10:44
Or participate in a loyalty program, by the way, right.
Sylvain Charlebois 10:46
Yeah, exactly. And I think people are aware of that. But we did hear of a couple of instances, incidences before the, before the break before Christmas. Two companies actually were victims of cyber-attacks. And we still don't know whether or not databases, which contain sensitive information from customers, was a breach there. And so, I think privacy is really becoming an issue for, for people in a, in a digital cashless economy, if you will. 53% it's not, it's not usual, but it is the majority. And the other issue, even though the vast majority appreciates plastic, and the convenience of using either debit or credit to pay for groceries. 72% actually believe that if a grocer decides not to accept cash, it would be seen as discriminatory, which I thought was very interesting, (crossover talk).
Michael LeBlanc 11:46
That's the part I thought was super interesting. I mean, I learned a lot from the study, as I always do. But that part I zeroed in on, like, if you're, you know, if your furniture company doesn't, or your whatever, doesn't accept cash, that's one thing. But if a grocer doesn't accept cash, it seems,
Sylvain Charlebois 11:52
It gives us food.
Michael LeBlanc 11:56
For Canadians that's different.
Sylvain Charlebois 12:01
It's food, it's food. And that's why I think it makes it, even though the vast majority, I would say probably the vast majority of Canadians really couldn't care less about cash right now and wouldn't have used cash for many, many days.
Michael LeBlanc 12:16
(Crossover talk). This section was brought to you by Rogers Communication, and it reminded people that cash is actually important sometimes.
Sylvain Charlebois 12:25
Yeah, exactly. But people do recognize the show, the social value of their socio-economic value of cash, which I thought was really interesting. And, and also coming out of COVID, I thought that cash would be seen as a dirty thing. You know, because there were a lot, there were a lot of talks about, you know, cash being a way to spread viruses and germs, (crossover talk).
Michael LeBlanc 12:43
A vector.
Sylvain Charlebois 12:45
Only 17% of Canadians are concerned about that. I was surprised.
Michael LeBlanc 12:56
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, it's actually surprising. It's that high in some ways. I mean, I think we've learned that, you know, notwithstanding switching everything during COVID. Well at it, but you know, how much sticks anyway, you know, the irony of all this, of course, and we will move on to our next thing is as an operator. It's really interesting, because on the one hand cash, is, it's not unexpensive to handle. There is some handling charge to cash, but there's right, I mean, you've got, now you've got cash, (crossover talk).
Sylvain Charlebois 13:25
(Inaudible) to human error, there's (crossover talk) different things that, yeah. Exactly.
Michael LeBlanc 13:29
You've just got to handle it. I mean, you just got to handle it, right, somebody's got to take cash, it's got to get deposited, there's a truck that's got to come to the business. And, you know, these large grocers have got to roll a Brinks truck to pick up the cash. So, it's not zero handling. But compared to some of the swipe fees, and this is the irony, right, is that consumers who earn these big point, points when they buy their groceries, in some instances, not all, you know, really, that it's resulting in high swipe fees that then result in you know, higher costs at the grocery aisle. So, you know, nothing's free in this world. Let's just put it that way.
Sylvain Charlebois 13:47
No exactly.
Michael LeBlanc 13:49
Do you see over time that it'd be really interesting to do this kind of what you would call a linear study, right? Because I think if you did this 10 years ago, you would get a different result. Now, 10 years from now, what would the result be? It would be super interesting; you know what I mean.
Sylvain Charlebois 14:15
It's like the self, self-checkouts I mean, 10 years ago, everyone hated them. Right, right, right.
Michael LeBlanc 14:18
Thank you, COVID, right?
Sylvain Charlebois 14:21
But today I would say the minority of Canadians are actually concerned about, about self-checkouts, seeing them as a,
Michael LeBlanc 14:26
Sure.
Sylvain Charlebois 14:27
As instruments to kill jobs I think many Canadians actually sees, understand the economics of food retailing a lot better now, (crossover talk).
Michael LeBlanc 14:44
Well, they also know that you know, anyone who reads papers knows it's hard to find people so it's not like there's jobs, you know, left aside from these things. There's you can't find the people to do the work in many, not all instances to begin with.
Sylvain Charlebois 14:58
Exactly.
Michael LeBlanc 14:59
Let's shift gears a little bit of a dairy, dairy double-down. There's a bunch of dairy issues here. I thought I'd float a trial balloon about the various dairy (crossover talk), various dairy issues in the past couple of weeks. Now, let's start with that session you had and others, you had an opportunity to ask Le Grande Fromage, the big cheeses, so to speak. Yes. Some pretty pointed questions doesn't mean you got pointed answers. Like, I think you asked him how much milk gets dumped down the drain? What did you learn from your inquiries of Canadians? What was it the Canadian Dairy Council,
Sylvain Charlebois 15:33
The Canadian Dairy Commission, which is a Crown Corporation, and they have an information session every year, it is public. But the difference this year is that they actually bragged about it. They said, please come and join us. So, I went and joined them. And so, there was a presentation for about 15-20 minutes. And frankly, it was okay. But it lacked detail. They weren't, it wasn't a whole lot of details in terms of, you know, what's going on with the dairy economy in Canada, prices, things that actually would be relevant to consumers. And so, I basically asked a couple of questions.
Sylvain Charlebois 15:52
The first one was about milk, milk waste on the farm. And if there is one, one agency that would know or should know how much waste is out there, it should be the Canadian Dairy Commission, and then they basically answered and it was, it is recorded. And they actually read my question. And they said, who actually was asking the question. It was kind of, I almost said, (crossover talk). Satan wants to know. Don't mention my name, please. But they did anyway. But they, they basically couldn't say, they didn't answer at all. And they didn't follow-up, either. They didn't say, you know, we don't know the answer, but we'll get back to you. There was no, let's get back to you. And the other ques-, (crossover talk)
Michael LeBlanc 16:58
Let's be clear on this. So, they couldn't or wouldn't answer. They, I think you said that they didn't that sorry, I'm paraphrasing. But I believe their response was we don't know. Is that a fair characteristic of their response?
Sylvain Charlebois 17:11
That would be, that's the answer I got. But I find it very hard to believe that they wouldn't know.
Michael LeBlanc 17:17
Well, it could be "don't ask, don't tell. Don't give me the information. So, I don't have to reveal it.
Sylvain Charlebois 17:22
Well, I mean, last night on Twitter, I don't know if you saw it, but one dairy farmer in Ontario, which, which I think was, there's one thing that I thought was really honest, is that he started to say, you know what? I'm going to start, I've dumped milk last year, 9000 litres or whatever, and I'm inviting colleagues to do the same. So, because the problem is not, are not farmers, dairy farmers are victims. It's the board, the board, boards are politicising the issue of waste. And, and they're the same, the DFO is the one that asked this one dairy farmer in the video to dump 30,000 litres of milk. The people, what people don't understand is that dairy farmers are part of a pool. It's not necessarily because he was producing too much. He was asked to dump milk because the pool was producing too much milk,
Michael LeBlanc 17:40
The pool was overflowing so to speak.
Sylvain Charlebois 17:43
Other farmers did get a call as well. But they never filmed the video. I mean, filming a video takes a lot of guts.
Michael LeBlanc 18:28
Well, if you, if you walked over to your sociology department and your fellow professors, would they call that a class traders to move revolutions forward, right someone who is,
Sylvain Charlebois 18:36
He was a whistle-blower, (crossover talk).
Michael LeBlanc 18:41
He is a whistle-blower in a sense, I, so what do you think's going to happen, (crossover talk).
Sylvain Charlebois 18:46
Because right now what's going on is that dairy farmers are pointing at him saying he's incompetent. He's irresponsible even though he's actually been in the industry for 43 years. You got an academic saying, you know what, let's normalise the issue because milk dumping happens, and these are the reasons why. And I'm saying you know what, we have supply management, we can actually eliminate all foodways with, with supply management by, by setting up a good system, a strategic reserve, we have one for butter, why not one for powdered milk. In Kingston, Canadian taxpayers and Ontario taxpayers actually partially subsidised a plant built by the Chinese to process Canadian milk and all that, and all that milk is now processed and shipped to China.
Michael LeBlanc 19:33
Yeah, we've talked about that before.
Sylvain Charlebois 19:39
So, why can we do the same in Canada with a Canadian company,
Michael LeBlanc 19:43
There's a process for this, right? If you've written a report, that there's a scientific process for this, we've talked about it before we take milk and turn it into powder. Is that right?
Sylvain Charlebois 19:52
Yeah, you can dehydrate and keep it for two years. And like I said, you can actually create a strategic reserve for these products as a buffer between, you know, the process (crossover talk) in selling because, of course, you have to find new markets. That's what they're doing with maple syrup in Quebec, by the way, that's what the Chinese are doing with pork. That's what we're doing with butter in Canada. And that, and that strategic reserve is run by guess who, the Canadian Dairy Commission. They charged the CDC with the task of setting up a parallel distribution strategy for wasted milk or milk surpluses if you will, and created a new category, it's really simple one, to make it illegal to dump. So, you create an incentive to change and then two, you mandate the CDC, with, with, with this, with a task of finding a new market for surpluses, there's always going to be surpluses.
Michael LeBlanc 20:53
Speaking of which, just before we get to our interview, I want to break and get to our interview with Shabnam from the Tea and Herbal Association. It seems like supply management works in some contexts, because you and I have been talking on mic a little bit, off mic a little bit around the situation with eggs in US versus Canada, in the US is more of a crisis, here it's not a crisis, which and this all ladders back to the Avian flu. But basically, if I, if I understand correctly, what you've been saying it's, we're in a good, we're in a better place, because eggs are supply managed. So, there is a benefit and upside to supply management, right?
Sylvain Charlebois 21:29
Oh, absolutely. And I know that market, Upson would love me for, for saying that. But I do believe that vertical coordination actually is helping, helping the industry deal with this menace called the Avian flu? In the United States, there is no, there's some coordination, but not as much as here. I mean, so egg prices have gone up 60% year-to-year in the United States,
Michael LeBlanc 21:53
Six, zero, what's happened here?
Sylvain Charlebois 21:56
Here it's about 16 to 17%.
Michael LeBlanc 21:59
Right? That reflects the higher cost because of the Avian flu or processing, but it's not 60s. And there's, (crossover talk) I've been talking to some friends in the States, they're finding eggs a little harder to find these days, right.
Sylvain Charlebois 22:09
There are no shortages either in Canada because provinces are working together. And so, so they are, there are advantages to having supply management. And I know that a lot of people think that I'm against the quota system, I actually am not. I actually do think there are ways to make the system work for all of us, especially in dairy. In eggs and poultry, I really have little or no issues because even without the quota system, my guess is that both the egg industry that we have in Canada and poultry would be competitive.
Michael LeBlanc 22:43
Interesting. All right, let's, let's take a break from the news and get the tea as the kids would say. A very special guest. Now this is recorded oceanside. So, every now and then you'll hear a sound and it's the sound of the water breaking at five o'clock in the morning on the beach in Hawaii. Yeah. So,
Sylvain Charlebois 22:56
Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 22:57
And I struggle with how to understand time change, apparently, because I'm like, my God, I had to get up at four o'clock in the morning. But it's a wonderful interview. And it was, (crossover talk). It was a beautiful time to be awake, actually I watched the sunrise. So anyway, let's get to our interview with Shabnam Weber, President of the Tea and Herbal Association of Canada.
Sylvain Charlebois 23:22
All right, we're very pleased to have a special guest today as Shadman Weber, President and tea, of the Tea and Herbal Association of Canada. Shabnam, welcome to our podcast.
Shabnam Weber 23:35
Well, hello, and thank you so much for having me. Sylvain and, and Michael, it's great to be here.
Michael LeBlanc 23:40
Welcome.
Sylvain Charlebois 23:42
Absolutely. So, just to start things off Shabnam. Tell us, tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, and what you actually do for a living. What does the President of the Tea and Herbal Association of Canada do, do every, every day?
Shabnam Weber 23:59
Well, you know, this is one of the questions that I tried desperately to get into an elevator pitch. I didn't quite manage but I will do my best. My background is that I've been in tea for the last 20 years. I was actually on the commercial side of it. I owned my own business for gosh, 15 years, something like that. I divested from my tea business. I had my company here in Toronto, about four or five years ago, In 2018, when I was offered a position of President of the Tea and Herbal Association of Canada. So, the Association is not for profit. We are membership based. And our job really is to in a nutshell, protect the industry, promote the industry. speak on behalf of the industry when it comes to things like issue management and government relations. And then you know, lots of fun stuff like the conference that we went to networking, which is where you and I met, Sylvain. I would say that's, that's kind of it in a nutshell.
Sylvain Charlebois 25:08
So, when you talk about the industry, what kind of companies are included when you say industry? Are we talking about importers, coffee shops, who are they?
Shabnam Weber 25:19
Yeah, so our membership is actually very, very broad. We're unique in that as an association, we have as members, pretty much everybody within the supply chain, from A to Zed. So, that starts at the grower level, we've got some tea boards, so the Tea Board of India, the Tea Board of Sri Lanka, the Tea Board of Kenya. So, those are on the government level in those producing countries, importers, as you mentioned, packers, large packer names that you know, and brands that you know and love on the supermarket shelves to medium and smaller size. And then again, retailers, large and small, as well as students, we run a really fabulous Tea Sommelier® Certification Program. And we've got a whole series of graduates that are members. So, everything from multinational, multi-million-dollar companies, to individuals who have completed our certification program. So, as you can imagine, the needs and demands of each of those are quite, quite different from each other.
Sylvain Charlebois 26:32
A Tea Sommelier® Program, wow, how long does it take to become a Tea Sommelier®?
Shabnam Weber 26:39
Well, the Tea Sommelier® Program takes approximately a year I'd say, it's pretty intense. It's eight modules. And I'm really, really proud of this program. It's actually my baby. I wrote it for the Association over 10 years ago when I was still in my private business. But yeah, we've had well over 300 graduates of the program around the globe at this point, and we've had 1000s that take the actual courses, some that don't want to take the full certification, but just take some modules here and there.
Sylvain Charlebois 27:14
Hmm. Wow. So, your, your, your association is called the Tea and Herbal Association of Canada. How significant is the herbal part of your group? Is there a division there or is everyone actually involved in both kinds of verticals there?
Shabnam Weber 27:33
Yeah, no, I would say vertically integrated. Because I mean, if you look at pretty much every tea company that's out there, they have herbals within their product range. So, you know there's, there's pure tea that comes from the plant Camellia Sinensis, I don't want to get you know, too in the weeds here about you know, tea education, but herbals or anything that we brew like tea, that doesn't actually have a tea leaf in it. So, chamomile, peppermint, those types of things. And if you think of your favourite tea brands, they have everything from your English breakfast, orange pekoes, and your green teas, right straight to your evening Chamomile and peppermint blends.
Sylvain Charlebois 28:15
That's great. So, you've been involved in the industry for a long time? How do you feel about the next 10 years for the, for the, for the industry overall for tea and herbal? How do you see the next 10 years evolve?
Shabnam Weber 28:31
To be honest with you, Sylvain, I'm an eternal optimist. I'm in tea, because I love tea, I'm, I run the Association, because I love tea. It's not, you know, it's, it's, I don't come from an association background. My love for the job that I have is purely in the product itself. So, I am an eternal optimist. And I think that the future is really quite ripe for the success and the growth of tea and herbal within Canada and, and, and beyond, you know, I get asked the question quite often, do you think tea will ever be as popular as coffee, and I gotta tell you my response every single time is hang on a second it already is. Just because it's not the most consumed beverage in Canada or in North America or Europe it doesn't mean that it's inferior to coffee, tea is in fact the second most consumed beverage on the planet next to water. So, you know, it's, it's, it plays such an important role in so many different countries and cultures around the globe. But I think that you know, with an emphasis on health and wellness and, and, and, and you know, getting centred and, and living a life that is perhaps calmer. I think that you know, tea really, really places itself in a good place as the beverage of choice.
Michael LeBlanc 30:00
Is it also the case with a lot of new Canadians that many are coming from tea drinking cultures? So, would you envision in the next 10 years, the percentage of Canadians drinking tea, the whole going up, down or sideways? What do you think about that?
Shabnam Weber 30:15
Yeah, absolutely. Michael, that's, that's a really, really good point to bring up. Because that is the reality. As I said, it's the most consumed beverage in the world next to water. And it's so important in so many cultures around the world. And it's, you know, those are habits and traditions that people bring with themselves, wherever it is that they live. So, I think that that's definitely a factor. And because of that, I think that we're going to see more varieties and more types of teas available to all of us in our, you know, regular supermarket grocery store shopping.
Michael LeBlanc 30:48
Let's change course for a little bit and talk about the industry and industry challenges and what's on your agenda in terms of files as an association, what are the, what are the challenges, of course, as a, as we, Sylvain and I often talk about relations with, relations with grocers, relations with the restaurant industry. What are the top two or three things government perhaps, what are the top two or three things that are files on the top of your desk?
Shabnam Weber 31:16
Well, let me start with quite on, on, on the, the bigger scope. And that will be globally, I think, as an entire industry globally, our challenges very similar to really so many agricultural products, and that's sustainability. And, you know, for us sustainability is environmental sustainability, economic sustainability and, and living wages. And, you know, these are, these are all important subjects and topics that the industry takes very seriously, it has been working on this quite aggressively for, for a number of years in order to try to address them. To be quite frank with you, you know, most of, if not all of these topics, come back to one fundamental conversation. And that's the value of the product and how much that product is sold for in our grocery stores. You know, I think as a consumer, (crossover talk).
Michael LeBlanc 32:13
Is fair trade. We often think or I think I (inaudible) Fairtrade coffee, is Fairtrade a thing in tea? Like what's the composition of the tea growers? Is it mostly large organisations, large growers, or is it a mix of small, can you talk about that a bit?
Shabnam Weber 32:28
So? Yeah, absolutely. So, Fairtrade is a concept. Because Fairtrade is a brand, right. So, Fairtrade for sure as a brand is part of, of tea growing as a concept. The tea world or globally, the tea industry does most of its certification through Rainforest Alliance, and Rainforest Alliance is that you know, that green frog that you see on your product is very much those principles of Fairtrade and ensuring that fair wages are indeed received across to consume, you know, to where your tea is coming from. In terms of the makeup, over 60% of the tea that is produced in the world actually comes from small growers, just small holders. And I think that that's a little-known fact about the tea industry, because, you know, we tend to think of multinational global players within the industry there, they are definitely present. But the majority of it are small holders and that's very much a conversation when it comes to sustainability that it is, (crossover talk) front and centre.
Sylvain Charlebois 33:35
Sorry to interrupt you, Shabnam, as a reference, who are the top tea producers in the world?
Shabnam Weber 33:41
Well, the top producers in the world are China and India. They are not the largest exporter, however, because they tend to produce a lot of tea that is kept within the country for domestic consumption. The largest exporter of tea in the world is actually Kenya.
Michael LeBlanc 34:02
Kenya, I was going to guess Sri Lanka, I was gonna guess Sri Lanka. But,
Shabnam Weber 34:06
Yeah, Sri Lanka is definitely in the top three when it comes to production. You know, within the global trade, but the largest exporters, actually Kenya and against Sri Lanka, is not because they don't produce a lot of tea they definitely do and a lot of excellent teas. But there's a lot of domestic consumption as well, right? So, when we're talking with China and India and Sri Lanka, they are tea consuming countries as well as tea producing countries, where in Kenya it tends to export a lot of what it produces.
Michael LeBlanc 34:39
All right, so globally, that's, there's some similarities with many industries you know taking care of the people who make the product and the environment. Let's, let's bring it back to Canada, you talked about that the price is always important, but not, it's always consequential and relations with, with the grocers and the sellers. What are, what else is on your desk?
Shabnam Weber 34:57
Yeah, so um, that would sort of be on that global larger scale, and for me and the industry at the moment, which front and centre is a conversation that, you know, we've been having with Health Canada for quite some time, and that's promoting the health benefits of tea, we know that tea is healthy for us. You know, if I do a poll at this point, you know, versus 20 years ago, the inherent health benefits of tea are simply, it's a given most people, most consumers understand that tea is good for us.
Shabnam Weber 35:12
What's become really, really interesting for us within tea, and what got us all really energised and excited at the moment, is a study that was released towards the end of last year, the late fall of last year on the importance of flavonoids in our diet. And flavonoids, as you may know, are bioactive and bioactive are just they play a really, really important role in human health. They are naturally occurring compounds that are available in foods and are really critical for our health and well-being. And, you know, conversations that I've definitely started with Health Canada, and, and, and I'm now having with some government officials on various levels, is to expand the conversation that government, nutritionist, doctors have with Canadians about how to live a healthy life.
Shabnam Weber 35:35
We've always talked about vitamins and the importance of vitamins, and they are critical to, you know, healthy living. But we know so much more today than we did. And we know that it's not just about vitamins. You know, doctors and scientists and nutritionists are talking so much about the importance of bio-actives at this point. And bio-actives are what leads to, you know, helping to reduce the risk of heart disease and cardiovascular disease and diabetes. And these are all things that we know, have been on a rise, not just in Canada, but around the globe, and unfortunately, have even seen a spike during COVID. You know, heart disease is the number one killer around the globe.
Michael LeBlanc 35:51
Yeah.
Shabnam Weber 35:52
And if we can start to talk about positive changes and positive things that people can do, then I think we should all be on board for that. And for tea what does that mean? You know, bio-actives flavonoids, you can get from many, many different foods and vegetables. Blueberries, for example, are a prime example of it and an apple. But tea has the highest amount of antiox-, sorry flavonoids, than any other food products that you only need two and a half, between two, two and a half and four cups because you know, flavonoids numbers are sort of all over the place on the types of teas that you have. But between two to four cups of tea meets what the study that was released at the end of last year, meets what their recommended daily dose of flavonoids are. It's so easy and it's right. It's so easy. It's so accessible. Why not, you know, talk to Canadians about that. And so that's really top of mind. And I have to say it's a project that I'm quite excited about pushing forward. I was going to say that your passion is coming right through the microphone.
Sylvain Charlebois 38:22
Because I'm looking at the food guide that was introduced in 2019. As you know, Shabnam tea is not well positioned.
Shabnam Weber 38:33
No, (crossover talk), well, Sylvain to be quite frank with you know, beverages, right. Do you see any beverages on that right there's a glass of water?
Sylvain Charlebois 38:42
Well tea is lumped into colas, coffee and some energy drinks.
Shabnam Weber 38:45
Exactly.
Sylvain Charlebois 38:46
And what you just described to us, it's way beyond that. I mean, tea should be positioned very differently.
Shabnam Weber 38:54
Way beyond that. And I think that that's another really important, you know, message is, you know, Canadians and not just Canadians, people around the globe have drastically changed the way that we're consuming calories, right? You look at that food guide, and it's all about food. And, of course, food is important. But, you know, the, the, the rise in functional beverages has been astronomical over the last few years. And nothing in that food guide really directs people to, you know, how to consume healthy calories through beverages. And, you know, as you just pointed out, when you're lumping tea in with a cola, I really have to question you know, the value of what some of that information is really about.
Michael LeBlanc 39:42
Yeah, very, very different things. We saw you last at the coffee conference, Coffee Association of Canada Conference, and were you there doing covert-intel work, or you weren't very covert, but you know, is it, is it kind of, well, we all own the hot beverage category. So, let's get together. What's your association with coffee, your association, associations with coffee so to speak?
Shabnam Weber 40:06
Yeah, so nothing covert for sure. I wasn't a wallflower. So, I was not in disguise. To be quite honest with you. So, many of the subjects and topics that we deal with as industries, we share, you know, on the topic of sustainability, for example, you know, on the topic of, you know, people's preferences and how they consume their food and calories and beverages, etc., we share a lot of mutual concerns within the industry. And, and I'm always, I have always, and will always be a big believer in collaboration and working together with partners to be stronger. You know, for sure, I drink a cup of coffee, shocker, I do, and I, I enjoy my coffee. It's not about doing one thing exclusively over another. So, I think that, you know, if we, if we all work together on some of these larger subjects, we would probably be able to push them further along. So, I work quite closely with the Coffee Association of Canada, as well as other colleagues and other associations in tea globally.
Sylvain Charlebois 41:21
What's the one thing people don't know about tea that you wish they knew?
Shabnam Weber 41:26
Yeah, I was actually just going to ask you about your 32nd pitch for tea, but you just, (crossover talk). You just got it. Well, you know what we, what we haven't asked you is? What's your favourite cup of tea if you, does it change by you know, (crossover talk).
Sylvain Charlebois 41:34
What is your cup of tea, (crossover talk)?
Shabnam Weber 41:37
It's the most delicious beverage out there. And, you know, people usually expect me to say health, health, health, health, health. And it is, it's healthy for you. But my message always, when it comes to tea, is I drink tea, because I love the taste. I genuinely love tea. And there are so many different types of teas out there. Just because you had one that you may not like, it doesn't mean you don't like tea. And please believe me on that. There are black teas and green teas, there are oolong's, there are white teas, there's (inaudible). And those are just the straight teas. Then you start blending and flavouring and combining and, and doing botanicals. And you know it's absolutely endless.
Shabnam Weber 41:55
So, I drink it because I love it. The fact that it's good for me is the bonus. And when people ask me, you know, what is the healthiest tea for me? My answer every single time is the one that you like best, because that's the one you're going to drink the most of. So, I never start with tea. It is healthy for you. Although it is, I always, my message is about the flavour and taste, and how comforting and beautiful this beverage is. What's my cup of tea? So, it does change to some extent, I tend to start my day with a strong cup of black tea. I grew up with that. And it's just, it's, it's my comfort place. I put a splash of milk into it. So, a strong cup of black tea, it could be a nice strong Indian tea, a nice strong Sri Lankan tea or a nice strong Kenyan tea. And, but everybody who knows me knows that if I have a gun to my head and I have to choose one single tea, it's always going to be an oolong. I love my oolongs and those are partially oxidised teas. You notice how my voice completely changes when I, (crossover talk).
Sylvain Charlebois 43:45
There's lots of emotion there. I need to try one of those.
Shabnam Weber 43:51
It's absolutely gorgeous and velvety and aromatic and delicious. And yeah, it's my happy place.
Michael LeBlanc 44:01
All right, I'm very thirsty now for a reason, (crossover talk). Shabnam how could folks go learn even more about tea and your Association what you do, where should they go? How do they get in touch?
Shabnam Weber 44:13
Our website is so simple. Michael, tea.ca, t-e-a dot c-a. it doesn't get easier than that. Loads of education and information. We change things up on the website all the time to make it interesting for consumers. We're also very active on social media. So, @canadatea, that would be on Instagram on Twitter, Facebook, TikTok and LinkedIn. And if you really want to learn more about tea, check out our Tea Sommelier Program and that you'll find, you can find the links to tea.ca or also a very simple teasommelier.com Simon is our website as well. So, loads of information out there.
Michael LeBlanc 44:56
Well, thanks so much for joining us on The Food Professor podcast. It's great, great to get to know, it's great to get to know you better and the Association better and learn more about tea every time you and I speak I learn more about it. So, thanks again for taking the time to join us on the podcast.
Shabnam Weber 45:11
Well, it's been a pleasure, thank you to both of you. And I hope you, you know, get off this chat and make yourself a cup of tea.
Sylvain Charlebois 45:19
All right. All the best to you.
Shabnam Weber 45:20
Thank you.
Sylvain Charlebois 45:22
Take care, bye bye.
Michael LeBlanc 45:25
Well, a great interview. I mean, I knew of the Tea Association because I don't know if we talked about this in the first part of my career, I worked in the disposable cup business, Lily Cup and Dixie Cup. So, I was a cup person making a billion and of course, a lot of what we did was talk to different associations. So, I knew they existed, but I was really intrigued. You know, talk about social justice, the global impact, you know, who makes the most amount of tea and, and I thought it was a great interview. I mean, she's so articulate, (crossover talk) it was really interesting to listen to.
Sylvain Charlebois 45:58
Yeah. When I met Shabnam last fall, I arrived and she wanted me to talk for half an hour as a keynote at her conference, and I told her when I arrived. I told her, I don't, don't feel like talking to people. I'd love to, you know, I'd love to have a fireside chat with you.
Michael LeBlanc 46:10
Yeah, yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois 46:12
And she said and that was like an hour before.
Michael LeBlanc 46:15
Right.
Sylvain Charlebois 46:16
And she said no problem.
Michael LeBlanc 46:23
Great. Yeah.
Sylvain Charlebois 46:25
Love her, (crossover talk).
Michael LeBlanc 46:27
Fantastic, fantastic. All right. Now, let's wrap up a couple of things. You wrote an op-ed for the Globe and Mail, basically, you know, calling out for the hard discounters as they're known in the grocery space Aldi, Lidl to come to Canada now we already have two of the biggest international retailers as part of the top five in Canada. Now, why do you think two more of these folks would make a difference structurally in Canadians?
Sylvain Charlebois 46:53
No, I wouldn't say two more, I would say two different businesses or a different business model. And that's kind of what I was suggesting. That's what's missing in Canada. When you read my column, what did you think? Were you surprised? Well, you know, it's been a long been talked about these hard discounters coming to Canada and, and you know, in the States, Aldi has not been wildly successful. And it's a very competitive market. They have 2500 stores.
Michael LeBlanc 47:21
Well, they get 3% market share. I mean, they're there, they're not nothing but they're pretty small in the context of America, right.
Sylvain Charlebois 47:29
Because it's a busy place. Lidl has had some issues for sure. Because they started in 2017, I believe, and they don't have 200 stores yet. So, they've struggled a little bit, but all Aldi has been doing okay versus Lidl.
Michael LeBlanc 47:43
Yeah, I mean, yeah. So, so basically, the tenor of your argument was that we don't have genuine discount stores. Now the grocers would probably disagree. There's lots of formats that they say they strip out that cost you, your perception is that they don't go far enough, basically, and you need someone else to come in and show them how it's done.
Sylvain Charlebois 48:02
Well, it's the independence of grocery discounting, basically that's missing in Canada. I mean, all the, I mean, I know that a lot of people think that No Frills is all, is all about minimising everything but, but they're, they, they have this external influence, because they're owned by Loblaws. Same for FreshCo, (inaudible), Maxi in Quebec I mean, all of these banners are influenced by the Grand Poohbah, the mothership. Well, Lidl is the mothership and Aldi is the mothership. There's no other, there's no other division. So, the commitment toward discount groceries is absolutely clear, and there's no compromise. I lived in Austria for one year and went to Aldi and Lidl every second day, and I felt the difference. With Aldi there are more brands than Lidl, but I would say that the difference is pretty, pretty significant. And the price has really reflected that.
Michael LeBlanc 49:10
Interesting. Well, I mean, it's a topic for another episode, well, many other episodes, but I mean, basically, the idea would be that size gives them a bigger buying pencil than they could ever have. So, that you've got, you know, yes, Loblaws owns a lot of banners, but it B, gives them you know, when they're talking to folks like Nestle, it gives them a huge pencil so therefore that should translate into better costs and in the discount format, they strip out some things and voila you got good prices for, for Canadians, but you think there's more, more work to be done.
Sylvain Charlebois 49:44
I don't know what the solution is. I mean, I as you know, Michael, I'm a big fan of the code of conduct that is being proposed. I think it is a step in the right direction. I don't believe that Lidl and Aldi will enter the Canadian market because it's a really tough market. It’s are 38 million people in one of the largest countries in the world. So, distribution costs are very, very prohibitive. And so, I get that. But I do think that we need a disrupter. I think every time there's a menace, you can feel that grocers are shaken up, and they're, and they're fighting for their market share. And that's when you see discounts. Remember Target when it entered the Canadian market in 2014, you saw a bit of a price war going on for a while. Amazon Fresh's announcement a few years ago basically suggested that perhaps we could go to Canada.
Michael LeBlanc 50:42
And look how that worked out by the way, Amazon Fresh announced last week. They're slow in their roll on the stores. They don't have it, right?
Sylvain Charlebois 50:48
(Crossover talk) I don’t they actually opened a new store since September.
Michael LeBlanc 50:52
Well, they've got five of them opened. So, they built, and they got zombie stores. I mean, basically Amazon in their last results, which was last week said why we don't think we've got it right. I'm paraphrasing. We're slow on our roll-on grocery, all of which highlights how complex and difficult it is when Amazon can't figure it out. And they were the disrupter. Well, they didn't disrupt anything as it turns out.
Sylvain Charlebois 51:12
No, no. But I think you understand what I mean. I mean, as soon as you, you hear there's, there's a, there's a threat.
Michael LeBlanc 51:16
Sure.
Sylvain Charlebois 51:17
Whether it's perceived or real. It really shakes things up. And I think right now,
Michael LeBlanc 51:27
I think your two examples, though, teach us that when people rattle the sword, not to get too carried away, because it seems like you know, we know what happened to Target, eight.
Sylvain Charlebois 51:38
And I just think that a menace will actually make our grocer’s even better and stronger.
Michael LeBlanc 51:41
All right. All right.
Sylvain Charlebois 51:43
I mean, Tar-, Target I mean that there was a load of problems there, (crossover talk) yeah. But generally speaking, when you see a new player coming in, and as you know, Michael, I'm following very closely Kutsal, which I think could be a potential disruptor in the grocery business, whether it's in Canada or elsewhere around the world, but I do see Kutsal as a disruptor. And the other rumour that I'm hearing is a potential acquisition of Metro of Save-On-Foods by Metro. That is another possibility in the near future. I don't know if it's going to happen or not. I'm just throwing it out there. I don't know what your thoughts are. But I've heard that rumour more than once now.
Michael LeBlanc 52:34
Wow. I mean, they're one of the last remaining Indies in the country. So, it's no question that lots of people are going to make rumours about who could buy them. Well, foods is.
Sylvain Charlebois 52:44
Well Save-on-Foods is not really an indie anymore. It is becoming pretty big. Well, yeah, but-
Michael LeBlanc 52:49
Well, yeah but they're owned by the Pattison Group, right. I am thinking of the same one. So, I don't, I don't know if Jim Pattison, you know, is interested in, I don't know, who knows. Anyway, interesting. Last, last but not least, our friend who was a guest on the show, Yanick Gervais at Olymel is, (crossover talk). Olymel, I have practised that all morning. You know, our rehearsal went so well, (crossover talk).
Sylvain Charlebois 53:11
I think right now it's holy smoke.
Michael LeBlanc 53:14
Well, what's going on? He's, you know, he talked quite eloquently, he articu-, articulated how size and scale was very important in the processing business? But it seems like they're, that he's, is he cleaning up a mess that he inherited? Is he, is there something going on with the business or the dynamics? What's going on?
Sylvain Charlebois 53:31
Well, they were, I mean, there was a bit of a party going on between 2015 and 2019. Hog prices were way high, they had a lot of capital, they bought, they bought Pinty's, they bought (inaudible), where I actually worked when I was a kid close to Farnham, for 700 million bucks. So, they have a huge debt now. And of course, they were hoping that things were going to continue but right now, I mean, Olymel exports a lot, it exports to the US. And of course, a lot of products end up in China. And you probably saw what's going on in China. They're building capacity a lot.
Michael LeBlanc 54:10
But they're recovering from a huge, what was it a swine, there was a huge pork,
Sylvain Charlebois 54:14
They lost a third of their herd from, I'd say 2019,
Michael LeBlanc 54:17
Right.
Sylvain Charlebois 54:18
To 2020. But they're back now. I mean, they're actually under control. And they're building a major, I mean, they actually just built a 26-story hog farm,
Michael LeBlanc 54:22
Crazy.
Sylvain Charlebois 54:23
Which can actually produce 1.2 million pigs a year. That is the amount that Olymel is cutting this year alone. One, one farm, (crossover talk).
Michael LeBlanc 54:49
So, there's a number of things they built to, they grew to build scale and capacity. Now maybe they grew a bit too much. Maybe, I don't know, I don't want to speculate. But,
Sylvain Charlebois 54:58
Well, they've acquired a lot and of course In Quebec, you're dealing with the Fédération des producteurs de porcs du Québec, the UPA, and they, and they feel entitled to get a good price for their hogs. But right now, it's just not making Olymel competitive. So, yeah, Yanick and his team will have to negotiate with hog producers in order to make Olymel profitable again, because they lost almost $4 million in the last two years. I mean, that's you can't, Olymelor is bleeding money, because of the acquisitions because of, of, of, of the macro environment right now. So, they don't have a choice. But if I have to pick between Olymel and producers, because obviously, there's, I think there's probably about 24-2500 hog producers in Quebec, I can tell you right now, not all will survive. I mean, a lot of, a lot of them will disappear. And so, but you need to make sure that Olymwel survives, it is really important that it survives this, this bit of a, I don't call it a crisis it's basically a storm. And I think that the gov-, the government in Quebec is actually involved.
Michael LeBlanc 56:12
Interesting. Well, we wish our friend Yanick best of luck. He's a talented manager. So, I'm sure if anybody can figure it out, he and his team can. So, maybe we'll get him back on a little later in the year and get a first-hand update from what's going on. Now, that was our show. Now we have a bit of an announcement to make.
Sylvain Charlebois 56:35
What's going on with the sound effects? You had sound effects at some point,
Michael LeBlanc 56:39
I know I'm losing my mojo here.
Sylvain Charlebois 56:42
Is your sound person on strike or something?
Michael LeBlanc 56:45
No, no. Well, let's see what I've got here, you don't want that one. I See, I don't know here. Let's, how about this. There you go. There we go.
Sylvain Charlebois 56:49
That's a joke.
Michael LeBlanc 59:51
That was a joke.
Sylvain Charlebois 56:54
We don't have a joke for people. We have an announcement.
Michael LeBlanc 56:56
We have an announcement.
Sylvain Charlebois 56:59
There you go.
Michael LeBlanc 57:01
There we go. There is so much going on and we want to be cognizant and talk to a lot of people. And there's so much going on. And we decided together to go weekly instead of every two weeks that,
Sylvain Charlebois 57:08
Weekly.
Michael LeBlanc 57:09
Weekly. So, we're going weekly, we're upping the volume. Now, the good news is like this is, this is, this issue, sorry, this episode is a little long, and we'd kind of like to trim, shorten the episodes a little bit. But there's a lot going on. And importantly, we get to talk to twice as many people, which is, you know, such a wonderful industry, and we get to talk to a lot more people. So, we're going weekly, let's hear it. So, I appreciate you my friend, I mean, this puts a bit of burden on you that you're busy, you're a busy fella.
Sylvain Charlebois 57:46
People like us. Apple, yeah,
Michael LeBlanc 57:48
People like us, right.
Sylvain Charlebois 57:50
Yeah. And so, (crossover talk).
Michael Leblanc 57:52
And we're independent. So, it's been three years. And so, I'm very comfortable with the format. And to be honest, at the beginning, I didn't know we would have enough content to, to, to do like a monthly podcast really, let alone a weekly one. But I think what we're doing is great. We're a top-rated podcast, So, I'm really, I'm really pleased with, with the listeners, we get good, great comments. So, we're not, we're not, we're not a sponsored podcast. And we like it that way. We like freedom. Freedom is so important. So, it's been great doing this and I'm looking forward to actually doing a podcast every single week. So yeah, it's like a date.
Michael LeBlanc 58:40
(Crossover talk), well, let's call it a date and,
Sylvain Charlebois 58:44
It's probably around, around St. Valentine's Day.
Michael LeBlanc 58:48
That's right. All right. Well, let's leave it there. So, as we often say, on our way out our outro I'm Michael LeBlanc, Growth Consultant, podcaster media keynote speaker. And you are?
Sylvain Charlebois 59:03
I'm Sylvain Charlebois, The Food Professor
Michael LeBlanc 59:08
And we'll be back next week. We can now say that we'll be back next week and each and every week. With another episode. We got more great interviews already lined up and you know, listen, no shortage of stuff to talk about. But if something you want us to talk about, that was not, send us a note and we'll take a look at it. So, once again, I appreciate you my friend and have a safe week and we'll talk to you again real soon.
Sylvain Charlebois 60:11
Take care.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
tea, Canada, grocers, people, Canadians, talk, industry, Sylvain, Lidl, dairy farmers, association, cash, dairy, bit, years, business, teas, Aldi, grocery