The Food Professor

At the Tipping Point: Canadian Restaurants, Cannabis Edibles & Part Two of FHCP CEO Michael Graydon Interview

Episode Summary

In part two of our interview with Michael Graydon, we talk about the code of conduct. The CEO of Food, Health & Consumer Products of Canada offers his unique perspective on the Canadian agricultural industries. Further, my co-host Dr. Sylvain Charlebois and I cover the latest news and hottest topics across the Canadian food landscape. How gratuitous is our gratuity? We take time to unwrap the latest data from the Angus Reid Group on tipping and shed light on the impact of Canada’s tipping culture across industries, and specifically, in restaurants.

Episode Notes

In part two of our interview with Michael Graydon, we talk about the code of conduct. The CEO of Food, Health & Consumer Products of Canada offers his unique perspective on the Canadian agricultural industries.

Further, my co-host Dr. Sylvain Charlebois and I cover the latest news and hottest topics across the Canadian food landscape. 

How gratuitous is our gratuity? We take time to unwrap the latest data from the Angus Reid Group on tipping and shed light on the impact of Canada’s tipping culture across industries, and specifically, in restaurants.

As the crisis continues at the Exceldor poultry plant, the Ministry of Work in Quebec steps in. We talk about damaged control and revisit the labour dispute that is at the centre of this issue. Sylvain sheds light on the major stakeholders in Quebec’s poultry industry. 

Finally - I ask Sylvain what he’d request for his last meal. Our menus might just surprise you! 

Don’t forget to subscribe to our Youtube Channel where you can watch full episodes of The Food Professor Podcast, bite-sized highlights and everything in-between.

Episode Transcription

Michael LeBlanc 

Welcome to The Food Professor podcast, episode 29. I'm Michael LeBlanc,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

And I'm Sylvain Charlebois.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

The Food Professor's brought to you by omNovos, the digital customer engagement solution for grocery and restaurant marketers helping you deliver personalized and segmented experiences at scale. Find out how you can get personal and grow sales by making every customer interaction count with omNovos at realcustomerengagement.com. 

 

Well, Sylvain, happy St-Jean-Baptiste Day.

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

I can tell you are not a Quebecker, you can't pronounce it. 

 

Michael LeBlanc 

I'm holding my words.

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Happy St-Jean-Baptiste Day. And if you have some time, have, have some poutine today.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

We should tell the people, you know, we're having some fun with the book, The Poutine Nation. It's a great book. 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

That's right. 

 

Michael LeBlanc 

You know, look forward this fall, there may be an audible version of the book with,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Really? 

 

Michael LeBlanc 

I, I, 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Oh, yeah?

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Which could be a lot of fun. So, keep an eye out for that.

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Not with my voice, not with my voice.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Part two of our interview with Michael Graydon, President of FHCPC, Food, Health & Consumer Products of Canada. 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Yea,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

We get into this code of conduct issue. The first part of our interview is really about Michael and the organization. Now, we delve into this code of conduct. Michael certainly brings his full energy to the conversation. 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Yes.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

That's coming up.

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

That's a great conversation for sure.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Great conversation. And, now we should say next episode, we invite Diane Brisebois, the President and CEO of Retail Council of Canada, which has the, you know, if Michael represents the makers, Diane represents the retailer. So, it brings a different perspective, so we thought,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

And in a very different perspective. Yeah, absolutely. 

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Yeah, so I thought it was a great, great idea to program both in, side by each, so to speak, so 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Yeah,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

That we could have both perspectives and, and all the people could, could hear both perspectives in and around that. 

 

All right, well, let's jump right in. Out from the lab, a couple of studies. So, first of all, let's talk edibles. And, I think there's a couple of by-lines, overall, in the study. One is that Canadians are not as Canna-curious, but to me it read like they're, they're not kind of Canna-curious because they've already, they're kind of past curiosity. They're like, okay, this is a 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Yeah,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Product, what is it? $2.6 billion, probably another $2.6 billion to three still in the, in the black market. But what did you learn? We've been talking about cannabis for a while, is, what did you learn from the study? And, and did anything jump out at you?

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Well, I mean, the Canna-curious term was, was coined by my colleague, Brian Sterling, who's, who's done a phenomenal job with this study. He's, he's the principal investigator on this study. He basically looked at the data. He's a cannabis expert. I'm more into edibles specifically. But, what he's done was amazing, because for the first time, we were able to compare data from Canada with data from the US and see exactly what's going on. 

 

Frankly, what I wanted to know is whether or not legalizing cannabis federally here in Canada made any difference really. And, we could use the American market as a benchmark and, and what we found out was really, the American market is booming, booming, it's incredible. The market in Canada is worth probably $3 billion retail, which is okay. But, it's nowhere near what Deloitte was saying a few years ago, Deloitte was claiming that the cannabis sector would be worth billions and billions of dollars. We're not there at all. And I think,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Well, is that, but is that a matter of timing? So, I remember Stats Cannabis, which was the fun Stats Can,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Yes,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Initiative to try to scope the market, said it's about 5 billion plus or minus and, and so are you, are you, are you defining there between the legal market and the illegal market? Do, you, do you not think the market is that 5 billion or, because right now we're 2.6 a year plus.

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

The, the illicit market is much larger than the, than the legal market right now, especially when it comes to edibles. And, while we've seen in the United States, because in some states, I mean, cannabis has been legal for quite some time now. 

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Right, yeah, yeah. 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

And over time, you see a conversion of people consuming cannabis, the dry version, and they get into edibles because the human body was not designed to inhale drugs. Ingesting drugs is much better for you. And so, there is that transition that does occur. But, there is a market for edibles in United States and there are supplies for edibles. Not in Canada, because there are a lot of regulations.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Yeah, I was just gonna say it's a regulatory difference. Now, interestingly, you know,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Don't forget Michael, here in Canada, edibles are a drug. If you look at the Cannabis Act, it is considered a drug, not a food product, which is not the case in the United States.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Well, the other difference in the United States, and there's many right, so probably beyond the scope of this, this particular episode. You know, it is federally legal in Canada where it still is only legal by state by state in 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Yeah,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

The US. And New York state, the big news in the cannabis, retail cannabis sector, is New York State. 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Oh yeah.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Going, legal. 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

And Connecticut.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

That's huge,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Just on Friday, I believe they announced that they were going legal as well.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

That's right, and Illinois early, earlier in the year. So, you know, California had been the big market in the US for cannabis. I've been in many stores in both California and in Las Vegas, where it's legal, but off the strip, it's all kind of quirky. So, it's gonna be big. I mean, I think, I think, you know, New York is going to just probably surpass, I would bet California. The problem in California, and it's a problem here too, is the municipalities can opt out. And many 100s,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

That's right.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Of municipalities have opted out in California, they're coming back on stream. I mean, in Ontario, 70 plus municipalities don't allow retail cannabis stores. 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

That's right. 

 

Michael LeBlanc 

That's, that's a bit of a governor, unfortunately, for probably not the best reasons because it brings jobs and then taxes. It's the, you know, when I think of edibles, lots of innovation in the category, but it's the 10 milligram limit that seems to come out, and it came out a bit in the in the study, that, 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Yeah,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Is a constraint on the growth. Yeah? Would you, would you agree?

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Absolute, absolutely, it is limiting. I think everything that's going on in Canada was by design by Health Canada. I think that's what they wanted. That's what they wanted,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Slow and steady, right, slow and steady.

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

The last thing they wanted was a five year old kid eating a chocolate bar infused with cannabis accidentally, ends up in the hospital. That's, they didn't, they didn't want that they didn't get it either. And so, people are not as canna-curious, as Brian Sterling would say. But, they're not enthused either. They're, we're slowly normalizing the presence of cannabis in our market, which is nice, which is good. But, I think there's so much potential. I mean, in the US, they're aiming, they're, right now, they're hiring a lot of people. Last year alone, the cannabis sector hired over 70,000 people. So, we're almost at 400,000 people in that sector. And, they're aiming for $100 billion in sales by 2030. Those, 

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Wow.

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Numbers are incredible,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Wow,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Compared to what we're 

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Wow,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Seeing in Canada. So, it makes you wonder, did we actually legalize cannabis in Canada, or did we just decriminalized it? I mean, 

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Well, I,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

I think there is, there is a discussion going on right now.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Well, I think, I think in the fullness of time, right, I mean, we went through some chop earlier on and legalization from a retail perspective. Because we should divide our discussions around the people who produce the product and the people who sell the product. So, I know more about the selling of and, you know, in certain provinces like Ontario, you know, they, they wrote a textbook on how not to launch a retail sector basically, but are coming on, 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

That's right,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Right, it's a lottery, it's this, it's that, it was just, it was, it was just a fiasco of regul, 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Yeah,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Regulatory barriers. Now, that's past though. Now Ontario is, we've opened up in Ontario, I'm in Toronto 600 stores during a, 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Yeah,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Pandemic. I mean, it is, you know, I think you've only started to see it. So, my, if I was to be asked that question, you know, the constraints on the product distribution put on by the provinces, and to some degree, the regulatory framework, the slow and steady regulatory framework, I think in the fullness of time, listen, as you said, we didn't have, you know, young kids accidentally having too much cannabis because they got to hold the chocolate because, you know, even if they got a hold of it, there's not, it's not that powerful. So I think,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

That's right, 

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Walk, walk, run sprint, you know, in the fullness of time, it may, it may turn out quite well. Whether Canada takes its rightful place, as you know, one of the first in the world to legalize nationally, whether we produce the best, was there an export opportunity? Yes. Did we squandered? Maybe. You know, these are some really interesting questions beyond,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Yeah, I think so. 

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Customer acceptance you know.

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Yeah, I think, I think we're, I mean, there was a bubble that burst a couple of years ago. We saw a lot of layoffs. And, and I think there was, I mean, the sector was over capitalized. Let's face it.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

The production sector was. Yeah, the production sector.

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Because the demand,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Oh, absolutely, I mean, there is so much investment and so that burst.  And, I think it was needed. And, I think, I think the industry is looking at a great future, I think. A future of growth. So, the sector will be growing. But, I think, if I was, I would be looking at the US market. I mean, most players in Canada are looking at the US market very aggressively,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Yeah,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Looking at what's going on right now. And we are expecting more states to legalize cannabis, recreationally.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Well, and you know, one of those, Couche-Tard, is in, is in partnership with Fire & Flower and they're, of course,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Yeah,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

The opportunity is to get into convenience stores and get broader distribution. Generally, the study also talked about some net new, net new consumers to the category. But a lot of this is just shifting from dark to the light, you know, 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

That's right,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Creating jobs, creating tax dollars,, creating a lot of good things. So, anyway, all upside in many, many ways. So,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Yeah, absolutely, 

 

Michael LeBlanc 

And I, and I would say I'm actually doing a presentation in London, England virtually, unfortunately, next week. And it's a retail, 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Oh,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Transformation conference. 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Okay,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

And, I said I want to present on retail cannabis. Because,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Oh,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

The most interesting innovation in in-store, retail right now, much of it is happening in cannabis stores. Like, if you want to see innovation and determination, you know, they're selling, yeah, not exactly, but they all sell more or less the same product. That's,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Right,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

becoming less, less (inaudible), if you want to store innovation, man, go to cannabis, do a tour of cannabis stores. And you can see it. So, I'll be doing a presentation about that because I think that, that sets a high watermark for all retail. in terms of how they 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Interesting.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

In terms of how they innovate.

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Interesting perspective. I've never thought of that. But, as you were talking, it makes sense. Absolutely. Yeah, oh, it is a new sector, really. So, it allows itself to think outside the box a little bit.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

You know, I'll give you one little example. And then we could talk about it later in other episodes, but one of my, well, this brand called Superette, and when you walk in the store, there's two colored baskets, shopping baskets, a red basket and a blue basket. And if you pick up the red basket, you're cool, I know what I'm doing. I don't need you to approach me if you pick up the blue basket. Come see me. I want to learn more. So, it's just a little thing, but it's a fun 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Oh my god.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Innovation, right. It's a fun innovation, right? I think,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

I would pick up that red basket all the time. That's a great, that's a neat idea. Low, it's low tech.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Simple, easy peasy, simple, simple, but really creative, right? Like really fun, really creative. Anyway, so if you look for fun and creative, lots of examples in retail, but the cannabis retailers are doing a fantastic job. 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Excellent. 

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Now, let's talk about more research. Do you have any tips for us? I, latest research coming out today. 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Today, yeah. 

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Done by Angus Reed. I think, Angus Reed again, 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Yeah, that's right.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

I was looking at tipping, and I was looking through the results. And, a couple things jumped out at me. One is this interesting model of the warm glow, 'subjective well-being', I've heard it called another acronym. 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Helping people, giving money away. 

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Yeah, you know, how does how does tipping connect with happiness and, and just being, you know, a good person? And also, pragmatically, how does it connect directly to, you know, performance? Like, is it, it's like a mini performance rating. But, as we've talked about on the podcast, and we've had great guests, Carl Heinrich, from 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Yeah, absolutely,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Richmond Station talking about in

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

In fact, actually, it's, it was his, his visit that actually prompted us to look into this more seriously. We wanted to know whether or not Canadians are up for a no tip policy for one. And of course, we wanted to know how people feel about tipping in general and of course wanted to open it up, open up the door to this no tipping policy, because,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Yeah, yeah, 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Of course, Carl has followed that policy for a while, but now in Quebec, and in Montreal, you're starting to see some restaurants doing the same thing for recruitment reasons, equality. And so, it's coming up more and more. So, we felt, and because we are just at the end of a lockdown period, people are going to go out a little bit more, we thought of coming out with a, with a,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Yeah, 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Study on tipping,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Yeah,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

And to better understand the concept because I actually think that a lot of Canadians just don't understand the social implications of tipping or no tipping. I, there's a lot, there's a lot to unpack there. And, implications are pretty significant for, for employers, employees, the business in general.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels like, Canadians are not all in, in terms of the model. Like, they generally want, they just still want to keep tipping. And, and I'm afraid. 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

The warm glow.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

I worry, though, that, you know, the industry is going to miss its biggest, hopefully the last, you know, in our lifetimes, opportunity to reset. I mean, my goodness, they've been closed for a year. 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Yeah,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

And if you're not going to reset now,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

And a lot of them are having a hard time recruiting right now.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

That, you can actually it's interesting, Sylvain, because I looked down to the US, I interviewed Diane's counterpart, Matt Shay, from the, from the NRF, National Retail Federation. And, the biggest problem they have in the States right now is they can't find people. 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Yeah,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Millions of people quit their job in April, the biggest single month of people quitting their job in the entire American history happened in the month of April, of 2021. Like,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

This year? 

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Couple of months ago, this year, 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Wow,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

More people quit their job, not were fired, not were laid off, not were called back, quit their job, than in the entire history of statistics in America.

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Where are they going?

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Well, this is a really interesting question. There, they can't find people to go into food service. They can't find people to, they're trying to open restaurants, nobody wants to work there. They don't want it, they're all going into the,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

They are going outside retail.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Well, Amazon hires a couple 100,000 people a day sometimes. That's an exaggeration, but they're going to work in a warehouse. It's great. 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Right,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

I don't have to work with people anymore, and I make probably more money. So, 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Yeah,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

It's a real challenge. sectorally. And, and I, I wonder if it's a glimpse of the future here. I mean, you know, it's hard for us to, you know, restaurants been locked down for a year, you know, they don't have that issue, unfortunately, so to speak. But, when it starts opening up, it'll be interesting to watch what happens here. And of course, when I talk about the number of people quitting their job, we're not just talking about restaurants or any one sector, a lot of white collar, so, to speak, people are just saying,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Yeah,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Oh, you want me to come back to work in a physical office? No, no, no, I'm going to look for something else.

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

I don't know. Absolutely, more and more people are comfortable. In fact, actually, in the US, some, some companies, Morgan Stanley, for example, has a policy now starting today, that if you're vaccinated, you're welcome to come back. If you're not vaccinated, stay home. And so, people are starting to feel that, well, if you're a vaccinated, you're being punished because you have to show up to work.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

I didn't think of it that way. Well, it's you know, the, the banking sector is making a bit of noise, we're kind of off topic, but it's kind of interesting, because it's relevant, 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Yeah,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

In a broad sense. You know, they're saying, 'Listen, if you want to, if you want to work in Manhattan, and get Manhattan wages, get your rear end into the office building, that's where I want to be'. So, I think it still comes down to choice. In other words,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Yeah,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

It is fair, I think it's fair to say if I'm gonna pay you like you work in Manhattan, and you're working in Miami, on a beach, there's a disconnect there. 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Yeah,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

And there's a lot of other issues, but I think, you know, truing up payment. I think it's a bit old school for sure. I think they're going to rue the day they you know, force people into the office because I think their productivity, as they would admit has been fine. Anyway, big issue beyond our scope today. But anyway, that was a great study, and it's out today and available on the Dal site and I'll put a link up.

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

We're hoping, Poppy Riddle is our Principal Investigator, for this particular study. She did an, an outstanding job. She, she's an American from California who joined Dal last year. She's been phenomenal. We were hoping they will, it will get the industry to think about equality and,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Yeah,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

The future essentially, how do you recruit? How do you actually make the industry as Carl said, how do you make the industry a, a sector that is worthy of being a career path? Because right now we can't see it.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Well, alright, let's now have a listen to part two of our interview with Michael Graydon, CEO of FHCP.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Touch briefly for us on the change. You mentioned, there's the two brands, there's a merger recently or acquisition in the not for profit world or however it's framed, and then one or two of the kind of, you know why you exist, why what you do on it, what's the trade craft? Why you exist,

 

Michael Graydon 

We amalgamated with Consumer Health Products of Canada back in September. We had started the process, obviously, a lot sooner than that got slowed down a little bit because of the pandemic.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Yeah.

 

Michael Graydon 

But,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

The talks actually started before the pandemic?

 

Michael Graydon 

Oh, yeah, yeah, we, we were actually getting to the point of board approval on the two boards, just prior to the pandemic. Then the pandemic hit. And we felt that it was probably important, because obviously, when the pandemic first hit, many of us thought this would be a month or two, nobody had the expectations it would be 16 months. Let's just take a little bit of a break, and sort of let the world settle down a little bit. But then as it became very apparent that it wasn't settling down, we got back on track.

 

CHP had a very, very strong regulatory reputation on the health side. And, we shared a lot of members because they came to our organization for things like the retail relations, supply chain, the networking, the thought leadership programs, we undertake. And our vision was to create a regulation and government relations powerhouse, and where we could meet the expectations and value of those members, and not require them to have to join multiple organizations to be able to get what they needed. And so, it's been a very successful amalgamation. 

 

The cultures of the two organizations were quite aligned, which I think is what enthused me as well, around the potential of the amalgamation. It's created some great value in the organization and has given us a much larger footprint in Ottawa as well. And it's been very successful. The value from our members has been very strong too. 

 

So, you know, we do sit as kind of the voice of the food and health and consumer goods manufacturing. I know there's other associations out there, some of them sort of more fringe and sort of, maybe look after primary processing or cosmetics or specialty products. But, we have this large spectrum that we represent at about 80%, of what you see on grocery shelves, center store, and in pharmacies are made by the members of our organization. So, where, we are, and I think can be, can say, with confidence that we are the voice of this sector. 

 

And we really try to come at things as being evidence based, which is why we put so much credence and support into the regulatory work that we do, which is very different than any other organization in our sector, they just don't have the regulatory capacity. They tend to use the regulatory means that exists maybe in their membership. But in our world, what we do is we have those regulatory people within our organization who interface with the regulatory folks to be able to create those, that public policy advocacy to try to change and move things forward. And it provides, I think, some incredible credibility with government because of the, the scientific approach that we take and the regulatory approach that we take. And, and so where other organizations traditionally talk organization to the political nature of it, we do that as well through our government relations group, but our regulatory people are talking to the regulatory people within Health Canada, within CH, CFI, CFIA, and they're talking their language, because our people are scientists, too. 

 

So, it really does create that element of credibility when we come forward, trying to advocate for changes in public policy, and we're talking to the people in the bureaucracy in their language. And I think that's an important differentiation, and why we continue to invest in those things as we start to move forward. 

 

And I think, you know, it's, we're really trying to also create a really favorable business environment in this country. And that's why, you know, we invest a lot of time and things like the retail situation, because it's important to the economy. We do represent over 350,000 workers in this country. We are a big part of the economy here in Canada, we've got on the food side, a very strong interface with agriculture, which is phenomenal in this country. And, and so we become very important. And I think that economic prosperity is also very important in ensuring these companies succeed and continue to grow. And we can attract the capital investments so that they do innovate and, and sort of move forward. So that's kind of where we try to position ourselves. 

 

And, you know, I think being the largest also provides you the abilities to invest internally and sort of make sure that you've got, you know, strong regulatory, strong government relations, strong retail interface, strong communications, and it's all within our organization versus, you know, having to either go out and find it elsewhere or utilizing your members for that. It also gives us the opportunity to invest in research we do, we've done some really good work with Sylvain and his folks at Dalhousie, that has really been additive to the conversation around public policy. And it helps to provide information to government so that we can, they can make better decisions in regards to some of the regulatory frameworks that they're putting in place. So, again, being that large voice and representing such a significant part of the market gives us the ability to make those types of investments as well.

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Now, I mean, you are one of our food industry's most influential leaders and I, and based on our conversation over the years, I know you always see the future of the industry very positively. But, we, we do face some headwinds. Let's, let's admit it. And one of these challenges, of course, is related to what's happening right now with, with our discussion related to the Code of Conduct, or Code of Practice of some sort. It's a project, I know it's it's near and dear to your heart and to your organization's as well. What are your thoughts about, about the federal working group in general? And, because there's been, there's been a few models thrown out there and I know that you've come forward with your, your, your, your own roadmap, with the support of Empire, and Sobeys, and so what, what are your thoughts on what's happening right now with this discussion?

 

Michael Graydon 

Well, you know, to begin with, we've been at this for 12, 15 years. I've been at FHCP for five years and this has been a key priority for those five years, we have worked hard to try to get people's attention. And quite frankly, we've had a difficult time getting retail attention. In conversations I've had with retail and associations that represent them, not on the agenda, don't want to talk about it. Those that have been interested in having conversations about it don't want to put in the effort. They want us to come to them with solutions that they can review. Until, after many conversations with Michael Medline, Michael finally said, 'Look, I don't know if I believe in a code of conduct or not. But I'd really like to learn more. And I'd like to understand where you're coming from, because you guys invested a lot of time and, and an effort into this. And, 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Yeah, 

 

Michael Graydon 

The result was Michael, 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

He did, he did acknowledge publicly that there's, that there were problems. 

 

Michael Graydon 

100%

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

That there were issues, yeah.

 

Michael Graydon 

100%. And so, you know, we'd had the conversations with Michael long before his, his speech at the Empire Club in Toronto, where he sort of dropped the bomb in regards to the industry.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

He sure did, he sure did.

 

Michael Graydon 

You know, he wanted to listen, and, and he was willing to work with us to find a solution that could be in the best interest of the industry. And I think because of Michael's comments and the work that we did, it helped validate what we've been talking to government for a long, long time, to the point where the Agricultural Ministers, after a lot of lobbying, agreed to put it on the agenda. 

 

I think the FPT working group has done a phenomenal job. They have met with 50, 60 different organizations, people who are, and they are taking this broadest perspective as possible, in regards to trying to help find solutions moving forward.  It is challenging because of the constitutional issues that exist, because we believe strongly in a regulated code. And I believe strongly in a regulated code because I actually believe in best practice. And voluntary codes have not demonstrated value or worked effectively anywhere else. And I don't know why Canada would be any different. And why an organization or retailer would want to cede competitive advantage on a voluntary basis when they don't have to. Which is why we believe that a regulated code is necessary moving forward. 

 

We took it upon ourselves in working with Sobeys to utilize the best practice of the UK and we, and in our discussions with them, actually even utilized, Christine Tacon, who was the adjudicator for over 10 years in the UK, to facilitate the conversation, to help add context to the conversations. So, we started with principles and I think it is really important that the retailers, the alliances, the RCC or whatever the group is, has publicly come out and said, one, we believe we need a code and two we agree with the principles that FHCP and Sobeys have come up with. 

 

But we took it farther and we delved into where the key issues were, and we came up with 14 provisions that really start to get into the need and would be effective in changing that culture to efficiencies from farm gate to shelves away from this sort of punitive relationship that exists today and that imbalance of power, so you know, variation in supply chain agreements, payments and deduction policies, listing payments, forecasting order, duties that they have in relations to delistings, elements around confidentiality. We delve and we created these provisions of all these areas. 

 

What's getting lost in the FPT and what's got lost with the other submissions that is out there is that the issue is behaviour of the top 5, 6 retailers and the imbalance of power, that getting addressed as it did in the UK, here in Canada, will have a cascading effect for some of the other issues that are apparent in the industry. But if we go back, and if I look at the alternate proposal that was put in place, was kind of replicate what FPT has already done at government expense, which to me seems like a waste of time and money because it has already been done. But two you get this massive group, and this working group, bringing their own agenda items, and what ends up at the end of the day is the key issue, of those 4 or 6 retailer behaviour gets watered down, and at the end of the day you start boiling the ocean And with all due respect, things like food in the north, is a very important issue that we need to deal with in this country. And the code of conduct should not be the tool to do that. 

 

And there are so many other agenda items percolating, I think the big retailers are just sitting back and saying, you know, this is perfect. because at the end of the day, this thing is going to have absolutely no intensity to it. and we are going to end up, just the way we are and the balance of power will never change. And life will go on the way it is.  And that is not what it was designed to do. It is designed to change those behaviours, but again, we continue to articulate the success in the UK.  The code has been implemented, manufacturing profitability has increased and capital investment and innovation has gone through the roof. Retail profits have gone up. Capital investment in eComm and the stores has gone up. Retail pricing has been moderated, if you look at the inflation, food inflation in the UK versus Canada, a completely different spectrum. But then the amount of investment in innovation and new products and things is also happening because companies have the capital to invest.  Why are we ignoring that best practice success in almost a duplicate environment? and that's the frustrating aspect of this.What would be wonderful, is if the retailers actually are truthful in their desire to join Empire and FHCP is to look at the code we put in place and make modifications to it, to adjust it to maybe accommodate some of those things that might impact the independent smaller retailer, or impact some of the smaller manufacturers that maybe don't have sightlines and entry into the big retailers. Why are we starting from scratch? Because I think a great deal of it is ego, and I really do think that,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

But Michael, aren't you comforted by the fact that at least there is an effort to engage in a broader conversation about this? Because I mean, 12 months ago, if you'd told me that we would have a couple of proposals to address this issue, I would, I would have said to you, you're crazy. But here we are. I mean, we get we're having everyone wants to get involved in that conversation. Would you see that as a positive?

 

Michael Graydon 

100% There, you know, when, when you've been working at something for so long, and just pushing that pea up the hill slowly but surely, to get to that, where RCC is out there saying we believe we need a code of conduct when 18 months ago, they said to me, not even going to have the conversation with you. That is success. And it means that the dialogue no longer is about whether we need a code or not. The dialogue transitions to what does that code need to look like? 

 

The other thing I took great pride in, Sylvain and Michael, is the fact that they agreed that the principles that we had identified were the right principles. What a great start. Now, how do we get from where we are today? 

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Yeah, 

 

Michael Graydon 

To where we need to be. And the problem is, nobody's talking to us. When we came out with the code, and we went to all the retailers, we went to RCC and said we'd like to talk to you about this. I didn't get any return phone calls. They went and did their own thing. So, we've got to find a way to bring this back to the conversation where all the key players are included. If I look at the proposal they've put in place, one I don't agree that this whole long term two year process makes any sense because it, it devalues what the FPT has done. But look at the steering committee, the largest association representing 80% of what's on store shelves isn't part of the steering committee. How do you run a process where the major manufacturers, who the most impacted by the current behavior, don't have a seat at the table? 

 

It's, now granted, they're developing a proposal for government not aligned with us. I'm sure those things will evolve. But it shows a glaring error in regards to inclusion. And it's not then represented. There's one sort of association in there that's sort of related to our industry, but it's not. It's not the voice of manufacturing in this country. So, we got to find a way to get to the table. And, I think at the end of the day, because there's an element of agreement and I'm hopeful that they're sincere in their approach that this isn't just to sort of muddy the waters. That we can find a mechanism that FPT and the government can show some leadership in regards to finding ways to get the true collective that should be around the table discussing this. 

 

I did and wanted, I would have died to sit down with RCC and try to get this done. We have done some amazing things with RCC over the years on everything else, but this particular file, and if we could take that same respect, and that same desire for change, as we have in recycling, plastics, marketing to kids, front of pack labeling, and transition it with the understanding that we're looking for a win-win, then I think we could have accomplished some pretty amazing things. But

 

Michael LeBlanc 

it is as the advocates say, you're together on many issues, but you're the at the opposite end of the table, or different parts of the table for this issue.

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Or this one. Yeah, 

 

Michael LeBlanc 

I would, I would, you know, transition to, it's been great. You've been very generous with your time today. I would transition to one place where we're all working together. And that's, we both, The Food Professor podcast, RCC and your organization, Canadian Grand Prix New Products Awards. So, we come together to celebrate new products. We were together, what did you think of the, of the products? Did you see any trends that caught your eye? I mean, you're, you're at the sharp point of the the knife so to speak with seeing what's coming out and what was winning and what were finalists. What, what did you think? Anything catch your eye that you've seen amongst your members that really stood out for you?

 

Michael Graydon 

Well, there's a few things you know, I think we're a lot of the investments in innovation are coming are sort of an evolving segments in our business. So, when you look at, you know, plant based and some of the innovations that are coming through there, I thought it was some pretty exciting stuff. The others really around packaging, and, and you look at, you know, some of the dispose, or the compostable pods from Kraft Heinz, Loblaws and their private label program,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Reynolds had some compostable 

 

Michael Graydon 

Yeah,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Baking paper and some, some aluminum. And yeah, that's an interesting.

 

Michael Graydon 

To me, that's where I think a lot of the innovation is going to continue to come on the packaging side, because I think, you know, ultimately, we, we are the masters of our consumers. And the consumers are awakened, and I think want change. And they will, they will purchase products from organizations and companies that share their values in regards to sustainability. And so,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Do you think that's really changed? I mean, you and, if you and I were talking 10 years ago, we would have talked sustainability is it, has it intensified? We haven't talked about the COVID era, there's lots to be said and not said about what's happened in the past 18 months. But you know, it really the COVID experience was a setback for many elements of sustainability and plastic bags back into, into retail, but that's kind of passing away. Do, I have the feeling that sustainability got a great acceleration, but I don't know, sometimes. I feel like we've been talking about it for a long time. Are we at this kind of at this, at this inflection point that's real? Or is it just another kind of, you know, as you said, moving the pea up the hill, are we just going up a few cents a few centimeters,

 

Michael Graydon 

I think there is, is seismic change starting to happen. And I think, you know, part of it is because governments are starting to get engaged and unfortunately forcing the issue. You know, the new regulations here in Ontario for recycling mean that the manufacturers are responsible for everything that goes into the blue box from a cost perspective. It now then sort of employs these people to find ways to make sure that the circular economy is alive and well, because you want that recycled materials to be able to be put back into your packaging as you start to move forward. So, I think there is there I think things like composability is very important.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

I worry that the recycling industry isn't catching up. I worry about how much of my things I put in the blue box actually end up recycled versus containers. 

 

Michael Graydon 

There's some good success stories, though. If you look at you know, the success in British Columbia with Recycle BC, you know, their contamination rates are much lower. And their, their retrieval rates are much higher than they are here in Ontario. And I think we can get there. But I, you know, I applaud people like Galen Weston, who stood up at the consumer goods forum in Vancouver a couple of years ago,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Yeah, yeah,

 

Michael Graydon 

Said, we got to get on with this because we have a responsibility as manufacturers to be able to show leadership in this area. And I think, you know, we've been successful at getting, you know, a number of manufacturers and, and, and the grocery retailers together to negotiate the regulation with the province, but also to come up with a producer responsibility organization to support the industry. And, you know, put the seed money in that's needed. to get it up and running. And so, we're showing some leadership . We’ve also, you know, FHCP worked very closely with, with RCC, and in sort of implementing a developing the plastics back here in Canada as well. So, I think it is it's,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

You're, you're more optimistic now than at any point in your career. You had a long career in and around all these issues, right.

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Yeah,

 

Michael Graydon 

Yeah, I think it's, it's moving and its time. And I think people are tired of seeing the oceans full of plastics. I think they're tired to hearing information about plastics actually making its way into the food supply. 

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Yeah,

 

Michael Graydon 

And, and so change, and it has to start with leadership of organizations like the ones that I represent, and leadership from our, our major retailers. And I, quite honestly very proud of both organizations in regards to the leadership that these companies are showing and, and prepared to make a difference going forward. 

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Well, you're, you're a passionate advocate for your members, and the industry. I mean, you bring perspectives from many sides. So, they're lucky to have you running in such a complex industry, right and made more complex with changes that we don't even understand yet, that were brought on by the COVID era. So, Michael, thank you so much for joining us on The Food Professor podcast, it was, it was always a treat. I think you mentioned Vancouver, I think that's the last time you and I were together as the kids would say 'IRL', in real life. I saw that presentation as well. And, I look forward to hopefully, you know, hopefully soon seeing you in person and enjoying your company in person. So, thanks again, thanks, again, for joining us and Sylvain,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Yeah, thanks so much for your time, Michael. 

 

Michael Graydon 

Well, thank you both and,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

And best of luck to you for the rest of the, you know, you've been, I don't think the pandemic has slowed you down.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Not sure anything slows you down, Michael. 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Yeah, exactly,

 

Michael Graydon 

When you look at, you know, the past period of time, not only have we progressed some very significant files, we pulled off an amalgamation of two organizations incredibly successfully. So, you know, you don't let a situation like this hold you back, you, you take every opportunity. But, you know, I want to thank you both also, for the leadership you both show to this industry, too. I think podcasts like this are important to get messages out and to keep the relevance and importance of this industry in the forefront of people's minds, because it's an incredible industry, whether you're selling it or, or, or buying it, it is a phenomenal industry. And it's exciting. And there's innovation and, and the two of you are great proponents of the industry. So, I thank you for your continued support of our manufacturing sector. And, and of course, very much so for our retail sector, which is a big part of our success, too. It's 

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Right on, right on.

 

Michael Graydon 

We're blessed here in Canada, we, we have some really amazing retailers. And when you look around the world and you look at the quality of retailers we have here in Canada and the innovation that they're bringing forward is, is pretty amazing. So, it, it gives us a tremendous platform to be able to sell the products that we make with such pride here in this country. So, thank you for your leadership guys really appreciate it.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Well and thank you for your support coming on the podcast. I wish you continued success and best of luck in all your all your work.

 

Michael Graydon 

Perfect. Thank you. 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Take care, Michael, 

 

Michael Graydon 

Thank you Sylvain.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

From the team that has taken thought leadership and community for retail marketers and direct to consumer brands to the next level with their Commerce Next Conference series, get ready for season one of The Conversations of Commerce Next podcast hosted by veteran retail eCommerce marketer and podcaster, Michael LeBlanc, with co-host Veronica Sonsev and Scott Silverman, and presented by Wunderkind, Conversations with Commerce Next gives voice to the eCommerce and digital marketing community like never before. 

 

You'll hear thought leadership with one-to-one interviews that will dive deep into marketing challenges, winning digital strategies, the latest research technologies and people behind one of the most dynamic industries in the world. Together we'll work to make sure as we emerge from the COVID era that you're ready to take on the new challenges and opportunities and help you thrive with insights and advice from industry leaders who have hands on experience that you need to hear. 

 

Available on Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, all the major platforms where you enjoy your podcast today. With new episodes debuting every two weeks.

 

Give us an update on, on the Exceldor chicken crisis, is that still going on? I had a bunch of people reach out to me after our podcast episode just horrified, just horrified,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Yeah,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

At the notion of so much food being wasted and, and,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

There hasn't been a lot of English press on this. I kind of made it a national issue writing, tweeting about it in English because most of the media on this issue is French. We're probably at about one 1.5 million chickens now, 

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Wow,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Which were euthanize and thrown away essentially, I think Exceldor is trying to save some of it by sending some chickens to New Brunswick. 

 

Michael LeBlanc 

(inaudible)

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

No, actually they're, they're, they're repackaging it for, for the human food chain. They just have to slaughter some of the chickens outside the province right now. They don't have many options. So, I mean, a couple of debates. Well, first of all, there's the, there's the labor dispute.  The Minister of Work in Quebec is involved now, as of today. And so they're going to try, he's going to be trying to get both parties to talk. But, let's face it, Michael, I mean, the power is on one side, I mean, it's,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Yeah, 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

The chicken farmers absolutely control the situation, they not only supply the plant with their chickens, and they get compensated for all the losses. They actually own the plant as well, because it's a co-op, it's a farmer co-op. And about 250 chicken farmers are owners, are in Quebec, and they own the co-op. So, you can see that, I mean, the chicken industry is, is vertically integrated, significantly. And so, workers are out of a job right now. So, it's gonna be very, very tough for them to, to negotiate. And they're asking for 40% over three years. I've never heard of an ask like that, 40%.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Well, you hear of it in some industries that it just, you know, this, this intersection point between a massive growth, in other words, 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

And they deserve it. They deserve it

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Tough work, it's just tough work somewhere, right, it's tough work.

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Oh, my God, it's noisy, it's humid, it's, it's violence. It's,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Yeah,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

You give me $50 an hour, I don't think I would work there more than two days. It's just, it's, it's not an easy job. And that's why you have to start thinking about automation. 

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Automation, technology,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

And AI. I mean, I think it's inevitable eventually, you're gonna, there, in Quebec alone, we had Sylvie on a few weeks ago, Sylvie Cloutier from CTAQ, I mean, there are 7000, 

 

Michael LeBlanc 

7000

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Vacant jobs right now in Quebec, in food processing, and many of them are in abattoirs. So, you got to do something.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

All right, well, let's, let's I actually hope by the time we come to our next episode, we can talk about the end of this issue. So, we'll, we'll come back to it, just because I think it's important to keep talking about it. And again, hopefully by the time we come back to it, we will, it'll be in the in the past. 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Yeah,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Last couple of things. Last couple of things for you. You put a fun post on Twitter. What is the food dish you can't live without? 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Without? 

 

Michael LeBlanc 

I think you said it was coffee for you.

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Did you respond, did you respond? I didn't see you respond.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

You know, it's true, because I've been thinking about it. And I said, what, what there is so many, but I think it's pasta for me. I make a my own pasta sauce, 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Is it pasta?

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Yeah,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Really?

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Yeah,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

You couldn't live without pasta?

 

Michael LeBlanc 

No, I love it. I could

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Oh, wow.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Eat every, it's like champagne. I can eat, and did in university, by the way, 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

With your wife, champagne with your wife. 

 

Michael LeBlanc 

And it's, a, it's actually another thing, I could eat pasta seven days a week. And for her it's one. I get one day. Every Friday is pasta night. I get one day out of the seven for pasta. 

 

So, you know, it's all, it's all fun and games. Now, the question I'm going to ask you to think about, not to answer today is what, what would be your last request to have for food, and why I'm asking you that is because just for fun, I'm starting a barbecue channel on YouTube, Last Request Barbecue. Where I'm going to ask people what they would cook,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Like a last meal sort of thing before being executed or something. 

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Yeah, exactly, exactly. 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Wow,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Like, whether it's executed or, you know, listen, this is the last thing I want to have.

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Haggis,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Haggis, it could be your last, I've had it. You know, listen,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

I want to die before I die.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

You know, I've had, I have to say, I've had, had, I have had fresh haggis, piped in, in the hole, piped in up the street, fresh made haggis. And it's, it's not bad actually. I like you know, it was it was not

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

I've actually had haggis in Europe and it's, it's delicious. I actually enjoy it.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Yeah, I just put it out of my mind when I'm eating.

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

I don't think it's to die for but. But in terms of, my goodness, that's a good question. I'd say you know, I'm a big fan of filet mignon. So, that wouldn't be too bad. I love seafood, oysters, lobster. Those are really special dishes that you don't eat that often and you just love. You just enjoy, those are special occasions. But I would probably, my mind would be around there. Do you do you have a request? So what would you say to the sheriff before being executed?

 

Michael LeBlanc 

My thinking today is a del, I make a deluxe mac and cheese, deluxe, deluxe with, which includes lobster smoked on the smoker.

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Oh, you just saved it now. Lobster.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

A lot,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Mac and cheese,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Mac and cheese,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Buddy. 

 

Michael LeBlanc 

No, no, you're thinking of Kraft Dinner here. God bless Kraft Dinner. I love that too. 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

But this, this is, this is a whole new thing. 

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Listen, there's, there's mango chutney in it. There's all kinds of stuff in it like,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Yeah, 

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Anyway, it's, it's deluxe. Anyway, so that's, that's a little bit about,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

I was actually served once, I was actually being hosted by a friend. He prepared me a nice filet mignon and on the side it was actually mac and cheese.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

And God bless him, I love that.

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

A very you know, well researched mac and cheese with a special cheese and it was amazing, like surprisingly good.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

When you, when you have my mac and cheese you will, you will, you will like, I'd love to hear your assessment cuz I make a pretty kick ass mac and cheese. 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

But he's the same guy who eats hot dog with peanut butter. Yeah, so

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Okay, well, I'm not going that far. 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

And he's not pregnant.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

On that note, another great episode. And, I wanted to remind everybody, all the listeners about our YouTube channel, we're getting lots of traction on that, you know, the YouTube channel has both the full episode and then we kind of chop it up into subject matters to make it digestible, so to speak. So, please visit us on YouTube search for The Food Professor podcast on YouTube. And when you're there 'smash' as the kids would say, smash that subscribe button. And then you'll get, you'll get all the videos that we release and, and we're having a lot of fun with that. And, that's growing well. So, it's just another way for us to have fun together and to grow. 

 

Michael LeBlanc 

And again, we also have lots of episodes coming up with bonus episodes with some of the great brands,

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

yes,

 

Michael LeBlanc 

That were part of Canadian Grand Prix. We've got some of the can, we've got Sobeys, we've got Longos, we've got Leclerc, we've got some more coming up. We've got some, some folks coming in from Lactalis to talk about how they look at innovation and food. We've got a great summer ahead of us. Great, some, great, great summer ahead of us. But for now, let’s wrap it up, let's bring it home. 

 

Thanks again to the folks at omNovos for being our sponsor. If you like what you heard, you can follow us on Apple, Spotify, anywhere you're probably listening to podcast today. Just subscribe and you'll get it automatically showing up and please refer us too, if you like our podcast refers to someone in the food industry or the grocery colleagues in the restaurant industry as well. 

 

And I'm Michael LeBlanc, and I am Producer and Host of the all new Conversations with Commerce Next podcast, new podcast. check that one out.

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

And I'm Sylvain Charlebois. Michael's sidekick.

 

Michael LeBlanc 

Well listen, I have a safe week Sylvain, have a safe week everyone and we'll see you on the other side. 

 

Sylvain Charlebois 

Take care.